My First Antique Chinese

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My First Antique Chinese

Post  Guest on Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:52 pm

Hello IBC folks,

I am super excited to get my first antique Chinese pot. I like how the patina is coming along and the crackle glaze is sweet. Onto the pictures:

















Notice how the pots used to be narrower in the olden days. I think a clump/raft bushy Chojubai will look nice in it.



Last edited by aman on Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:32 pm; edited 3 times in total

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My First Antique Chinese

Post  timatkinson on Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:24 pm

This is a lovely pot, congratulations on acquiring it. What are the dimensions? Warm regards - Tim

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Re: My First Antique Chinese

Post  Guest on Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:42 pm

Thanks Tim. The dimensions are 12"x7"x2.25".

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Re: My First Antique Chinese

Post  William N. Valavanis on Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:45 pm

Where did you find such a rare container, Matt?

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Re: My First Antique Chinese

Post  Russell Coker on Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:49 am




It's amazing how much it looks like the mass produced slip mould Chinese stuff from the 70s and 80s.... even down to the old narrow proportions.

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Re: My First Antique Chinese

Post  timatkinson on Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:14 am

I haven't seen enough similar "old" vs "new" pots to be able to attribute this...but my first take was that it was press-molded on a hydraulic press. The image of the feet in particular look press molded (probably of plastic clay, not dry powder). I don't think this was slip-cast, the over-all weight/thickness of the body and lack of lip on the inside argues against being slip cast. Of course, press-molding has been done for a lo-o-ong time and in no way demeans the beauty of the pot. From a potters point of view, a crackle glaze is a defect which has by now become a thing of beauty in it's own right. I think it is a lovely pot, the proportions and asymmetrical rectangular shape being part of it's charm. I would welcome information from those who know as to how this was attributed. Warm regards all...Tim

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Re: My First Antique Chinese

Post  Ryan B on Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:50 am

Tim,
You're entirely right. This was press molded, not slip cast. Show me the injection burr on the pot and prove me wrong! And press molding, using everything from modern technology all the way down to fingers and wooden planks has been around forever. The significant majority of Tokoname pots are produced this way: tartara(press molded by hand into a plaster cast). That being said, I will say that it is Aman's judgement ALONE that this an antique. It was never represented as anything other than "old" and of supposed but indeterminate age. (please refer to posts "my first Heian Tofukuji(which quickly became "My First Heian Tofukiji Jr", as purchased))
That being said, Tim, I do however take issue with "Crackle" being a flaw. As a potter, I think you know better. 100 years ago, this was probably a flaw, but now there are two distinct categories: Crackle and Crazed. Crackle is the intentional use of variable shrinkage rates to produce crazing. Crazing is an accident, a mistake, an unintentional result of the same process. The pot not really in question is crackle glazed, and a reproduction of antique Chinese pots that were "crazed.".
Ryan
Http://JapaneseBonsaiPots.net/

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Re: My First Antique Chinese

Post  Russell Coker on Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:27 pm




My bad, said "slip"... meant "press".

I guess that comes with being an "antique", which is what we really should be discussing. Not sure that's accurate. Being a product of the 60s myself, referring to it as "old" is a bit cringe-inducing.... but I suppose by now it is! Those proportions are really common on pots like this, it's actually harder to find ones with more modern dimensions. As for the glaze, it's common too, but I love it. Had it been really inexpensive I would not have hesitated to buy it. Just hope you didn't pay too much for it because it's not particularly valuable.

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Re: My First Antique Chinese

Post  timatkinson on Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:03 pm

It is so easy to say the wrong thing...Mr. Ryan B says..."I do however take issue with "Crackle" being a flaw...". I was speaking from a historical viewpoint of the technology of glazed pottery where a crackled or crazed glaze is the result (intentional or not) of a mis-match of the body CTE vs. the glaze CTE (co-efficient of thermal expansion). Over time even a small mis-match will result in crackling or crazing. I was using the words interchangeably, but of course one must look to the potters intention. I tell myself always to believe that what I see before me is what the artist intended, but this doesn't always prove to be the case. I accept the distinction between crackle and crazed as one of intention, with crackle being an intentional decorative use of crazing. Does this stand? I don't want to come across as a pedantic technician, when what I really wanted to say was how lovely the pot in question is. I appreciate Mr. Coker's remarks regarding proportion as an indication of age. How then to determine the relative age of a pot with a crackle glaze and archaic proportion but with no attribution? Perhaps it is best not to ask the age of a lady, a bonsai or a piece of unattributed pottery. Thank you Mr. Ryan B and Mr. Coker for your informed comments. Warm regards all, and I hope this discussion has not deflated Aman's joy in owning this piece of pottery. -Tim

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Re: My First Antique Chinese

Post  fiona on Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:09 pm

timatkinson wrote: I don't want to come across as a pedantic technician, when what I really wanted to say was how lovely the pot in question is.
I'd like to think that your very well-worded response, in particular the sentence I have quoted, would go the full distance to allaying any dismay aman might feel.

I too think the pot is rather lovely and any advanced age or antiquity would be icing on an already tasty cake for me.

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Re: My First Antique Chinese

Post  Andrew Legg on Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:16 pm

fiona wrote:
timatkinson wrote: I don't want to come across as a pedantic technician, when what I really wanted to say was how lovely the pot in question is.
I'd like to think that your very well-worded response, in particular the sentence I have quoted, would go the full distance to allaying any dismay aman might feel.

I too think the pot is rather lovely and any advanced age or antiquity would be icing on an already tasty cake for me.

Well Fiona,

I'll go a step further to allay Aman's fears by saying in an entirely non-technical and somewhat dubiously phrased way that I think that that's one kick-ass pot and I'd love to own it. Nice find Aman! Enjoy it! cheers

Andrew

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Re: My First Antique Chinese

Post  Ryan B on Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:12 pm

I definitely am the pedantic type! But in all honesty, definitions and semantics are all that disputed here, on either topic, right? "old" versus "antique", definition of "old" in pottery terms, "crackle" vs "crazed".
I didnt mean to come off all preachy, but the crackle vs crazed thing is just a pet peeve. Very well worded response Tim. It is a lovely pot, Aman.
Ryan
Http://JapaneseBonsaiPots.net


Last edited by Ryan B on Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:13 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Misspell)

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Re: My First Antique Chinese

Post  Andrew Legg on Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:41 pm

Hey Ryan,

If you're gonna get technical, you may as well do it right. The world would be a mish-mash of folk wallowing around in uncertainty if technical folk were constantly amorous toward ambiguity and uncertainty! That said, as and engineer, I'll stick for now to my kick-ass description and continue to rely on folk like you for the less touchy feely cold hard facts! :-). We'd be lost without y'all.

Aman, in the words of a true South African, kief pot my China.

Now, what the heck is that thing you want to plant in it? Sounds contagious! :-)

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Re: My First Antique Chinese

Post  Guest on Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:10 am

Thanks for those who like the pot. Maybe I should clarify certain details about the pot that apparently has spurred some weird going back and forth on a few comments (that could have been worded more cordially).

- This is a relatively inexpensive pot compared to most high quality Chinese antique pots. I think I got a good price for the quality.
- Ofcourse there is no way to tell the age of this pot since there is no hanko and no certain way of finding out. It could very well be a 25 year old pot that was heavily used, or a 80 year old pot that wasn't used as much. The Merriam Webster definition of antique is 'made in or representative of the work of an earlier period'. I think the shape and style of this pot fits the definition, and since the patina is real... I am guessing this pot is at the least 25 to 30 years old.
- Crackle vs. Craze.... I think Ryan explained that distinction well.
- Slip Cast vs. Press Mold: I can clearly see finger strokes on the inside of the pot... so I am leaning towards press molding. Again, Ryan explained it well.
- Where did I get this pot from? I am going to keep the seller information out of this post because I don't want him harassed about this pot (anymore).

I only hoped that people appreciated pots for their craftsmanship in clay type, clay color, technique, glaze, patina, painting, shape, etc., and not dwelved in superfluous details like how much is it for, how old is it, where did you get it from. Honestly, I fall in the same boat and from now onwards I have changed my outlook to appreciating bonsai pottery for what it is first, and worry about other details later (if I have too).

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Re: My First Antique Chinese

Post  JimLewis on Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:33 pm

I have four small, old-ish, round, white crackle pots -- all, I'm certain, made in China. I've had them for 25 years (or more) and I -- frankly -- can no longer remember where I found them or whether they were used or unused when I got them. Two of them came as a set, so that leads me to think they were new at the time. They are four of my favorite pots.

So enjoy this one, Aman; they're very versatile as to what you put in them.


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Re: My First Antique Chinese

Post  Russell Coker on Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:21 am

aman wrote:Where did I get this pot from? I am going to keep the seller information out of this post because I don't want him harassed about this pot (anymore).

I only hoped that people appreciated pots for their craftsmanship in clay type, clay color, technique, glaze, patina, painting, shape, etc., and not dwelved in superfluous details like how much is it for, how old is it, where did you get it from. Honestly, I fall in the same boat and from now onwards I have changed my outlook to appreciating bonsai pottery for what it is first, and worry about other details later (if I have too).


Well....

I can't imagine who's harassing "him".....

But I saw your first post about this pot - you know, the one you pulled. And I'm glad you did because the first thing I thought was "I call bullsh*t"!". I don't know if he told you to pull it, or you thought better of it yourself, but I'm glad you did.

The only reason I said what I said is because I don't want some unsuspecting neophyte taken advantage of if they find a similar pot, because there are plenty of them out there.

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