Defoliation

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Defoliation

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:56 am

Hello to All,

I had to defoliate these Fukien teas, because of ants, and the fungus their slaves brought with them. Looked ugly under the leaves, but didn't seem to be harming the shrubs.

If you look at the top of the shrub, you can see the black fungus. It responds well to being wetted and toothbrushed.




I am hoping to thicken the bottom branch, presently tied and pulled upwards. To hopefully make it top dominant.



The second tree. Apologies, I replanted it at the wrong angle which I can correct next year -chuckle



Third tree, this was gift given to me, it is about 15 cm [ 6 inches tall ] and I am trying for a few more branches.


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Re: Defoliation

Post  Guest on Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:01 am

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Hello to All,

I had to defoliate these Fukien teas, because of ants, and the fungus their slaves brought with them. Looked ugly under the leaves, but didn't seem to be harming the shrubs.

If you look at the top of the shrub, you can see the black fungus. It responds well to being wetted and toothbrushed.


Hi Khaimraj,

Do you know what type of fungus this would be then? Is it not just result of the lice 'droppings' (= ant slaves ;-).
I mean the leftovers from the sugars they excrete and where the ants are there for.
That does not necassarely have to be a 'fungus' i mean. Just wondering what you actually meant.

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Re: Defoliation

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:03 am

This next tree is Ficus p. and I did a test defoliation. This is a local ficus and is deciduous, going dormant just around Christmas, and eventually putting back on leaves around the end of February.
Gets tall really fast and weeps. I grew one in the back yard to try my hand at pounding the bark into paper [ Mayan idea ] sadly I had to kill the tree since they like water and it was going after the neighbour's cesspit.
Thanks for looking.
Feel free to say nay or yay on all images.
Khaimraj

About 15 cm [ 6 inches ] and only 3 years of so old and has great surface roots, with time.



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Re: Defoliation

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Wed Apr 03, 2013 10:09 am

Yves,

you are most likely correct as the black stuff washed off very easily. Trouble is the Fukien tea is very insecticide sensitive and I don't know what to do to get rid of the ants, especially since all I am seeing is one or two black ants, and not an army.

I tried Furidan, a systemic, which worked for a while last year, but the ants showed back up after so many months. They are not in the soil, and the stand is all concrete, with nowhere for the ants to live.
Plus, these were the only three plants they bothered, the other fukien teas are fine.
Any advice ?
Thank you.
Khaimraj

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Re: Defoliation

Post  mambo on Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:40 pm

In Spain this black stuff is called "negrilla", I think in English it is called "sooty mould". It is caused by aphids and a number of other insects as a by product of ants milking them for honeydew(or something similar) and the mould grows on the sticky stuff. To treat you need to kill the honeydew producing insects, neem oil will do this just fine. Once treated, you can clean the leaves and trunks without any effort by spraying with a pottasium soap product (this will also kill the insects too.

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Re: Defoliation

Post  Guest on Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:26 pm

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Yves,

you are most likely correct as the black stuff washed off very easily. Trouble is the Fukien tea is very insecticide sensitive and I don't know what to do to get rid of the ants, especially since all I am seeing is one or two black ants, and not an army.

I tried Furidan, a systemic, which worked for a while last year, but the ants showed back up after so many months. They are not in the soil, and the stand is all concrete, with nowhere for the ants to live.
Plus, these were the only three plants they bothered, the other fukien teas are fine.
Any advice ?
Thank you.
Khaimraj

Hi Khaimraj,
yes, a systemic only works temporarily (see explanation on bottle or guide), you will have to repeat treatments according to 'prescription'. There is no other way. In your climate you would need more treatments than here, i guess.
If you use a systemic, try to find a 'biological' one (whateve contradiction that actually is...kill em and call it biological :-).
I wish you good luck

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Re: Defoliation

Post  Brett Simon on Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:40 am

I agree with Mambo, Neem oil works well.
Defoliation will work as long as you can keep them off after.

Brett

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Re: Defoliation

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:00 am

Okay Guys,

firstly thanks for the advice, it is very much appreciated. Here is what I did.
Since I know the Furidan works, if only for so many months, I have re-applied the systemic. I have to get some neem and will test it on an expendable subject.
Will come back and let you know how it went.
Thanks again.
Khaimraj

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Re: Defoliation

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:51 pm

Gmelina.
Enjoy.
Khaimraj


Over 10 years old, maybe closer to 15 years.


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Defoliation

Post  Nigel Parke on Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:04 pm

[quote="Khaimraj Seepersad"]Okay Guys,

firstly thanks for the advice, it is very much appreciated. Here is what I did.
Since I know the Furidan works, if only for so many months, I have re-applied the systemic. I have to get some neem and will test it on an expendable subject.
Will come back and let you know how it went.
Thanks again.

Khaimraj,

Greetings.
This might be late, but I believe you could also try Orchard Oil as well as that should not be a problem with Fukien teas. But as is your norm, you could test on a subject prior. Other than the applications mentioned, another safe treatment would be to use regular Ant Powder to help control the source of the sooty mold, which is the ants who farm the aphids on the plants.

All the best,
Nigel

BTW that's a nice Gmelina, is it from seed or a cutting?

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Re: Defoliation

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:31 pm

Nigel,

if I might embarrass myself a bit, I have very little knowledge of insecticides or fungicides. Probably due to growing trees in full sun, never the same type next to each other, no wilting, no moist leaves going into the night, good rich compost and lots of luv.
Heh heh, how do you like that for a humble boast - chuckle.

Nonsense aside, I will look up the Orchard Oil and ant powder.

Thus far the shrubs are putting on leaves and I may have to move the larger Fukien tea onto the graden stands as the sunlight tends to stunt the leaves, into an unnatural size. However, when placed in the garden, the leaves recover and go back to normal.
Same way my J.B.pine needles magically grew from 2cm to 4.5 cm after a day of showers - ha ha.

The gmelina, [ wonderful shrub for Bonsai and grows well under lights indoors, as proven by my friend over in New Jersey] was a tiny cutting [ I have this problem with throwing away cuttings and normally have tons of things in styro cups to get rid of,] and I am growing it on.
Accidentally broke the Y joint of the back branch, and I hope it survives, though it most probably will just callous enough to stiffen, but not heal and a hole will most likely form.

I want to test wood putty and see if that makes sense for filling holes on trees that do not heal ------ anyone ?
Thanks for looking.
Later will be greater.
Khaimraj

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Re: Defoliation

Post  my nellie on Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:23 pm

Nice tiny gmelina, Khaimraj!
Wood putty is a chemical substance, isn't it? Will it harm the tree? I wonder...

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Re: Defoliation

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:55 am

Here is a Celtis l. or o. not sure when I collected it, so it is over 30 years old. Got it as a seedling, in Louisiana, and I am sure the older members know the rest of the history.
I have 3 from that time, and the other two are out in the grow troughs. I am trying to get to 3" [ 7.5 cm ] trunks.

This one I have saved for experimenting on , so apologies for no real shape. Came out of the fridge on April 1st and repotted. 2nd shot was taken yesterday, and the pruning will be done next month.
The leaves naturally go down in size, and from my early years I can tell you, the size can get really ridiculous, 1cm or less, but the density remains the same. At that size, of leaf there is nothing to be gained in appearance.

The cut roots are an attempt to get a few more trees, to experiment on. There are four more for doing tests.

The one I have in the personal gallery is really the only one that I tried to train. Perhaps I have too many experiments going on. Laughing

So for your pleasure. Out of the fridge by 10 days or so and the second image,yesterday.
Uses a simple soil mix of compost and inorganic.
Later.
Khaimraj

Love that twiggyness-



Get's really lush and with a few fertiliser boosts, the tree is good for the year.






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Re: Defoliation

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Fri May 10, 2013 3:53 pm

Gmelina back in leaf and a new celadon coloured porcelain pot.
Enjoy.
Khaimraj


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Re: Defoliation

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Fri May 17, 2013 12:17 am

Here are the children with leaves and shoots, all healthy. I forgot the ficus, so until next time.
Khaimraj








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Re: Defoliation

Post  Jerry Meislik on Fri May 17, 2013 2:52 pm

Khaimraj,
Very pretty trees.
Jerry

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Re: Defoliation

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Fri May 17, 2013 3:20 pm

Thanks Sifu,

just read your p.m. Will respond later.
Khaimraj

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Re: Defoliation

Post  Andre Beaurain on Fri May 24, 2013 11:15 am

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:
Get's really lush and with a few fertiliser boosts, the tree is good for the year.






Dear Khaimraj

Two little things...Why do you leave your shoots so long? I cut my Celtis's every second node.
And, there is to much growth between the nodes. This could mean not enough light, or to much fertilizer!
Do you keep them in the full sun?

Nice tree

Love and light.

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Re: Defoliation

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Fri May 24, 2013 12:14 pm

Andre',

I have been growing these trees from since the early 1980's but I still haven't finished learning how to grow them.

If I defoliate them, I get tiny leaves at 1 cm to 0.5 cm, and ultra fine twigging. These twigs then die off as the tree goes to sleep in October - December, and so I am looking to see if it makes sense to try and save them or just accept the response as a genetic fact of the tree.

Not one of them is at the correct trunk size of 5 to 7.5 cm and thus two are now in the growing trough to get there, and this third one is being experimented on.

So for this year, in that small pot, I cut only the longest shoots every month. I take notes by the way.

Placement has always been full sun, but this tree is presently in a position where there is over head shade for dappled light from 11.00 a.m until 3.00 p.m.

As you can see, I am still learning and experimenting for optimums. There are no pages written on Celtis, or at least I have never run across them, so I look for those special situations that each tree type has.

Take a look in the Personal Gallery for another effort, see what you might want to comment on. Send me a p.m.
Thanks for looking.
Khaimraj

* At the end of this month I will send another image.

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Re: Defoliation

Post  Guest on Fri May 24, 2013 10:43 pm

An effective non chemical control of aphid, scale & therefore the sooty mould & ant problem is White Oil.. In a plastic spray bottle combine 90 parts water, 10parts oil (vege or other similar cooking oil) and a couple drops of dishwashing liquid to help hold the oil in suspension & also to help the spray adhere. It has no negative impact on any plant or other insects (bees etc).

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Re: Defoliation

Post  Neli on Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:38 am

Khaimraj ,
why do you put your celtis in the fridge?
A friend gave me this recipe today...I am so fed up with ants...I am going to try it.
I trust him:


This is a LOW COST method to get rid of ANTS once and for all.
Instructions:
~One Cup Sugar
~THREE Tablespoons Boric Acid or Borax Laundry Soap
~THREE Cups of Warm Water

Mix the Sugar and Boric Acid together and slowly add the warm water, stirring all the time so the mixture will not get lumpy. Store is in a sealed jar and whenever you see ants simply take a used soda bottle or milk jug lid. Put a cotton ball in the lid and saturate the cotton ball with your sugar and boric acid mixture. It will not take much, just enough to fill the lid, if you spill any over the edge leave it, this will only attract the ants even more.

When you see the ants drinking the mixture, DO NOT kill them, let them drink and take the mixture back to the colony. This should kill the entire colony. In a day or two the entire colony should be gone.

***If you have small children or pets make certain they cannot get to this mixture since Boric Acid is hazardous.
https://www.facebook...tlosssolutions/

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Re: Defoliation

Post  marcus watts on Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:59 am

be very aware....

boric acid ant preparations will kill the roots of any bonsai incredibly quickly - make sure that there is absolutely no chance of the mixture getting onto the soil of the pot or you will end up watering it in and end up substantially weakening or killing the tree. last summer i used a boric acid ant killing product near to a bonsai and it went into very fast decline yellowing and dropping foliage....it took a mid summer emergency repot to totally remove all the soil and i found just one healthy root left in the sheltered area under the trunk ! this was potted in pure sphagnum moss with kyryu grit and the tree is still living and making new growth.

i had the aphid / ant / black mildew cycle on the triple trunk acer this year - as it is a tree still being designed and nowhere near refined i just let the aphids stay put as all the outer growth was due to be cut back mid summer anyway. i did sit the tree on its own away from the others though and i found the aphids stay on the new soft tips so they were virtually all removed with the hard pruning. it really did look like inner budding increased as the aphids were damaging the outside growth tips too

cheers Marcus

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Re: Defoliation

Post  Neli on Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:06 am

Marcus! Thanks!
Just made the mixture and was about to paint it on the trunk of the trees. Now I am going to paint a band around the outside of the pots/packets.

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Re: Defoliation

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Wed Jul 17, 2013 11:27 am

Neem worked!

Neli.
The celtis goes into the refridgerator as it needs two months of true winter's rest. Not the freezer!!!
The Chinese hackberry, does not however seem to need this type of rest, as it is grown outdoors all year long down here by my friend Mr. Fong Yew.
Later.
Khaimraj


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Re: Defoliation

Post  Neli on Wed Jul 17, 2013 12:44 pm

He! Darling I have some C africana and C sinensis...I have warmer weather than You here....but I did not have them for a year yet.
I dont have space in the fridge for it...but in SA it grows and no one puts them in the fridge...so I shall just have to take my chances...with it and my other weird decidious like maples ...zelcova...ulmus???
I know they need rest period...but did not realize I will have to put them in a fridge. What do You think will happen to them without a fridge?
I am going to Japan in october to buy some bonsai....dont want to buy trees that need to go in the fridge. Any advise on what I should buy?
Azalea +?????

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Re: Defoliation

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