Getting a bit frustrated with profuse back budders

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Getting a bit frustrated with profuse back budders

Post  PeacefulAres on Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:09 am

At the moment, most of my trees are either hackberries, mulberries or elms. While these species have several very wonderful features that can be utilized for bonsai, one of them is driving me a bit crazy at the moment. Practically every tree that I have collected has put out 50 or more buds in various locations. The larger ones have possibly up to a 100 or more. I've managed to whittle each these down to 10-20 on per individual tree. Eventually I will reduce that down even further, once I'm sure that the tree is healthy, and I get a good idea about where to best place the branches. However, no matter what I do, the just keep setting new buds. Even though the trees have several avenues for growth, they continually send energy to dormant buds, which I beginning to wander if I should be removing.

I'd like to channel the growth of the tree into a few strong shoots, but the trees don't seem inclined to do that. Do you think I should continue to remove these buds, or should I just let the trees grow wild, until they have naturally established themselves?

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Re: Getting a bit frustrated with profuse back budders

Post  dick benbow on Mon Apr 01, 2013 4:37 pm

I think if the trees could talk,and we could hear them; they'd be talking about how they're worried about the roots they lost in being removed from the neignborhood they grew up in. So they've invested ( their energy) into pushing more shoots to help them replace some new roots. In their new temporary quarters, the majority of their investment is being lost and now they have to go into debt to keep producing more buds to nourish and provide those wanted roots. At some stage they don't think they can go on with this losing economy. no return for the investment. If they have anything in common with their new owner is that they too are being frustrated.

Maybe it's time to let them feel they have sucessfully gotten re-established, and with income coming in, they can breathe a sigh of relieif and return to a more "normal" pattern of life.

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Re: Getting a bit frustrated with profuse back budders

Post  mambo on Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:36 pm

Are you crzy?

What are you complaining about.

Profuse buds and back budding are a bonsai artists dream.

They will always throw buds . I have a mulberry that I recently repotted and removed every branch that is budding like crazy. This is great it not only helps the roots grow but gives you a choice as to where to keep the branches. For now just let the trees shoot from everywhere like crazy. Removing the ones you won't use in the future will have the opposite effect to that you wish to achieve. By leaving everything to grow for a few months the tree will become vigorous and when you do remove them, the tree will respond with that extra vigour by thickening the shoots you keep much more quickly. It sounds like reverse logic but does work. You will appreciate the backbudding when you want to build taper into your branches and refine the tree farther in the future

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Re: Getting a bit frustrated with profuse back budders

Post  PeacefulAres on Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:02 am

mambo wrote:Are you crzy?

What are you complaining about.

Profuse buds and back budding are a bonsai artists dream.

They will always throw buds . I have a mulberry that I recently repotted and removed every branch that is budding like crazy. This is great it not only helps the roots grow but gives you a choice as to where to keep the branches. For now just let the trees shoot from everywhere like crazy. Removing the ones you won't use in the future will have the opposite effect to that you wish to achieve. By leaving everything to grow for a few months the tree will become vigorous and when you do remove them, the tree will respond with that extra vigour by thickening the shoots you keep much more quickly. It sounds like reverse logic but does work. You will appreciate the backbudding when you want to build taper into your branches and refine the tree farther in the future

The hackberries especially are throwing out 5-10 buds at a single location. If I let every single one grow, I'd be running into a lot of problems, with having dozens upon dozens of weaker shoots, all clustered together in clumps. I'm obviously trying to get the tree to grow vigorously, which is why I would like to direct the energy into 10-20 shoots, which can then extend and growth unimpeded.

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Re: Getting a bit frustrated with profuse back budders

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:15 am

Peaceful Ares,

can you provide a good image of the Hackberry/s ?
Khaimraj

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Re: Getting a bit frustrated with profuse back budders

Post  PeacefulAres on Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:07 am

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Peaceful Ares,

can you provide a good image of the Hackberry/s ?
Khaimraj

It's too dark out at the moment, but I can take some pics tomorrow.

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Re: Getting a bit frustrated with profuse back budders

Post  JimLewis on Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:06 pm

You should be so happy. All you have to do is take a thumb and rub the bud away as soon as it shows itself. It takes perhaps 1/10 second per bud (or group of buds). That's scarcely an onerous chore.

_________________
Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

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Re: Getting a bit frustrated with profuse back budders

Post  Guest on Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:47 pm

dick benbow wrote:I think if the trees could talk,and we could hear them; they'd be talking about how they're worried about the roots they lost in being removed from the neignborhood they grew up in. So they've invested ( their energy) into pushing more shoots to help them replace some new roots. In their new temporary quarters, the majority of their investment is being lost and now they have to go into debt to keep producing more buds to nourish and provide those wanted roots. At some stage they don't think they can go on with this losing economy. no return for the investment. If they have anything in common with their new owner is that they too are being frustrated.

Maybe it's time to let them feel they have sucessfully gotten re-established, and with income coming in, they can breathe a sigh of relieif and return to a more "normal" pattern of life.


ThumbsUp ThumbsUp ThumbsUp

...We just need to understand the trees, they can utter no words, but surely they can "speak" . Sometimes we forced the trees to much. in the initial stages of design the trees needs more time to rest than spend more time on top of the operating table. Always remember health first before beauty.

regards,
jun Smile

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Re: Getting a bit frustrated with profuse back budders

Post  Guest on Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:58 pm

Its a bit difficult to find a 'soft' way to tell you what i was thinking after reading this

maybe a simple 'uhm, okayyyyyy...' will do Smile

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Re: Getting a bit frustrated with profuse back budders

Post  mambo on Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:37 pm

I have wet dreams about this sort of back budding -usually involving pines!

You do not need to remove anything for now.

You have two choices.

1. (My Option). Leave everything that buds to grow and harden off. This will help build new roots after having collected them. Every shoot is matched by a root. The tree will grow more vigorous as a result of this. You can remove the unwanted shoots next year and the energised tree will throw everything into the shoots you leave.

2. Remove unwanted buds to direct energy. This equals less roots forming and less vigour. Next year the shoots you have left will thicken up, but less than if you follow option 1.

Principle 1 works on most trees (even pines) to great effect.

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Re: Getting a bit frustrated with profuse back budders

Post  PeacefulAres on Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:34 am

JimLewis wrote:You should be so happy. All you have to do is take a thumb and rub the bud away as soon as it shows itself. It takes perhaps 1/10 second per bud (or group of buds). That's scarcely an onerous chore.

The problem isn't really that it's too much work. It's just that I'm not sure if what I'm doing is the right thing for the tree. Unfortunately, I'm having some issues with the phone at the moment, so I can't get any pics. Obviously, the tree is back budding for a reason, so part of me wants to leave them to grow. On the other hand a lot of the little buds get shaded out and become weak or die. That's just lost energy. I'm getting frustrated become I don't know how to handle the situation.

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Re: Getting a bit frustrated with profuse back budders

Post  Sam Ogranaja on Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:22 pm

I agree with Mambo, Dick and Jun.

The point though, is that it's not truly wasted energy. Yes, it's wasted energy because at the moment it's growing something you ultimately don't want. But this growth is growing roots, and in your case lots of fine feeder roots that will in the end do nothing but support the growth that you want. Leave it alone for now and if you really feel bad about it, go back to it in a few months and remove it. But do so after this growth has hardened off and did what it's supposed to do which is send signals and food to grow roots.

I have a large clump style maple which was repotted this spring. It has responded with an absolutely ridiculous amount of buds and new leaves. This is not an exaggeration, but about 75% of it will ultimately need to be removed. I am tempted to remove it but the goal for this year is to let the plant recover and establish in the new pot and new soil. IMHO doing this will ensure success for when when I have to stress it out in the future by directing growth through wiring and cutting to achieve what we want.

A healthy tree is the only one that can withstand the stress we put on plants. The rest are just lucky...for a while.

Keep us posted!!
Sam

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Re: Getting a bit frustrated with profuse back budders

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:46 pm

Peaceful Ares,

my hackberrys are waking up [ some were left outside to get two clean years of growing for larger trunks ] and the ones from the fridge are repotted and will awaken in 2 or 3 weeks.

Normally, I will get buds all over from the ones in refrigerator.
I allow the trees to grow freely for one month and then I prune to shape.

Hopefully, you will be able to send an image or two or three.
Later.
Khaimraj

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Re: Getting a bit frustrated with profuse back budders

Post  my nellie on Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:25 pm

Hello, PeacefulAres.
This might persuade you because it not only is in complete accordance with what has been advised by others but it is also a "hands on" experience.
I have collected this phyllyrea and I was so happy looking at its amazing force!
But then I had opted for removing some of the growth and more than this I had put some wire on the shoots I had chosen to keep. Moreover, some unforseen (as usual) infestation by spidermites had tormented the poor tree last year.... As a result my phillyrea is now sitting sulking. Not a single sign of new bud.
One whole growing season has been lost.
Have I been enough persuasive?

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Re: Getting a bit frustrated with profuse back budders

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:59 pm

Alexandra,

I am sorry, I didn't see or wasn't around, when you showed your tree. I would suggested just leaving alone for 3 to 5 years getting it healthy, and then starting to work on it.
If you are lucky, the sulking will end.
Later.
Khaimraj

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Re: Getting a bit frustrated with profuse back budders

Post  PeacefulAres on Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:24 am

Sam Ogranaja wrote:I agree with Mambo, Dick and Jun.

The point though, is that it's not truly wasted energy. Yes, it's wasted energy because at the moment it's growing something you ultimately don't want. But this growth is growing roots, and in your case lots of fine feeder roots that will in the end do nothing but support the growth that you want. Leave it alone for now and if you really feel bad about it, go back to it in a few months and remove it. But do so after this growth has hardened off and did what it's supposed to do which is send signals and food to grow roots.

I have a large clump style maple which was repotted this spring. It has responded with an absolutely ridiculous amount of buds and new leaves. This is not an exaggeration, but about 75% of it will ultimately need to be removed. I am tempted to remove it but the goal for this year is to let the plant recover and establish in the new pot and new soil. IMHO doing this will ensure success for when when I have to stress it out in the future by directing growth through wiring and cutting to achieve what we want.

A healthy tree is the only one that can withstand the stress we put on plants. The rest are just lucky...for a while.

Keep us posted!!
Sam

I really do appreciate the comments. I'm just expressing the small amount of experience I've had with some of these trees. Like I said earlier, the growth after collection has been explosive, and with some trees that I collected december, the back budding was so heavy that a lot of branches were dying due to lake of light. I decided to try the hedge trimming method that was discussed by Walter Pall, and it's seemed to help the trees out a lot. On the other hand, the American Elm and Mulberry I collected this year have responded very well to the process of bringing down the number of shoots from 50-75(no joke) down to about 15-20 and have been putting out some strong growth.

I guess what I will have to do experiment. Some trees will be left alone, as you guys have suggested, while others will be given different treatments. And Khaimraj, I'm sorry I can't take pictures at the moment. It seems like any time I want to post a picture of something important, I have technical difficulties. Very Happy Even though the trees aren't much to look at right now, I feel like I've let you guys down. I'll get you something in the future, especially of the big boy.



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Re: Getting a bit frustrated with profuse back budders

Post  my nellie on Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:11 pm

PeacefulAres wrote:... ...I guess what I will have to do experiment. ... ...
Experiment! This is what Khaimraj always advocates warmly Very Happy

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Re: Getting a bit frustrated with profuse back budders

Post  mambo on Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:22 pm

[quote="PeacefulAres"]
Sam Ogranaja wrote:I agree with Mambo, Dick and Jun.
I decided to try the hedge trimming method that was discussed by Walter Pall,


I would never treat a bonsai with such disrespect. Hedge pruning techniques are for errrmmm... hedges? I hope that Walter was taking the mickey when he posted that, but knowing him, he probably wasn't!

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Re: Getting a bit frustrated with profuse back budders

Post  Sam Ogranaja on Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:50 pm

[quote="mambo"]
PeacefulAres wrote:
Sam Ogranaja wrote:I agree with Mambo, Dick and Jun.
I decided to try the hedge trimming method that was discussed by Walter Pall,


I would never treat a bonsai with such disrespect. Hedge pruning techniques are for errrmmm... hedges? I hope that Walter was taking the mickey when he posted that, but knowing him, he probably wasn't!

You must not know him that well if you think he treats bonsai with disrespect. Attack the practice, not the man.

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Re: Getting a bit frustrated with profuse back budders

Post  PeacefulAres on Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:05 am

[quote="mambo"]
PeacefulAres wrote:
Sam Ogranaja wrote:I agree with Mambo, Dick and Jun.
I decided to try the hedge trimming method that was discussed by Walter Pall,


I would never treat a bonsai with such disrespect. Hedge pruning techniques are for errrmmm... hedges? I hope that Walter was taking the mickey when he posted that, but knowing him, he probably wasn't!

I think that's an extremely narrow minded perspective. First of all, it's a tree. It has no concern over whether you respect it or not, and from the plants perspective, a delicate pruning and branch selection is no different than somebody going at with shears, or wild animals using it for forage. The tree is still being wounded and forced to recover. Not to mention, I've actually found the hedge pruning method to have decent results. Take these before and after pictures of the same tree.

This one was taken in mid January, about 3 weeks after the tree started to produce buds.


And this image was taken today, about a month after I gave it a rough shearing.


Although it's difficult to see in this picture, the main branches have already thickened to about a 1/4 and are becoming woody. There is also significant side branching occurring. Obviously, it's too early to make many claims about this tree, but I'll give it another pruning session in July/August and then let it rest until next spring. Hopefully, it will drop it's leaves, if not I'll just defoliate and do some proper branch selection.

Now, onto some of the pictures I said I'd get for you guys. It's nothing amazing, but it does give you some idea of what I was talking about. Here is the big hackberry I was talking about. Believe it or not, the remaining shoots are about 1/5th of what was originally on this trunk.


And here, there are about 4 shoots and several small buds(inside the black circle) emerging from the base of a branch, despite the fact that I removed a ton of buds from that area within the last week.

I'll probably remove these, otherwise they will likely cause an ugly swollen around about the base of the branch.


In this picture you can see an elm, with probably 15 or more new shoots on it. Again, this was merely a fraction of the original number.

And in this picture, you can see several new buds emerging, despite the fact that there many different outlets for growth.

I just want to say that I don't think that this is ultimately a problem. At the moment though, I'm just frustrated because I'm not sure what is the best way to handle the growth. I do appreciate the opinions from those of you who have more experience, and I am taking them into consideration. Eventually, I will figure out the best way to care for them.

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Re: Getting a bit frustrated with profuse back budders

Post  mambo on Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:17 am

[quote="PeacefulAres"]
mambo wrote:
PeacefulAres wrote:
Sam Ogranaja wrote:I agree with Mambo, Dick and Jun.
I decided to try the hedge trimming method that was discussed by Walter Pall,


I would never treat a bonsai with such disrespect. Hedge pruning techniques are for errrmmm... hedges? I hope that Walter was taking the mickey when he posted that, but knowing him, he probably wasn't!

I think that's an extremely narrow minded perspective. First of all, it's a tree. It has no concern over whether you respect it or not,

Well perhaps your view of bonsai is very different to mine...

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Re: Getting a bit frustrated with profuse back budders

Post  abcd on Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:36 pm

If it's very easy to create bonsai with ulmus, celtis, acer, etc, it's more difficult to manage their existing , to keep their architecture.
A little of water ( when the limbs band ) , a little or no fertilizer ( organic ) , no potting , only every 4 5 years, with very small size.
Despite all this , you will have to rebuild everything cut one day, bonsai are never completed

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Re: Getting a bit frustrated with profuse back budders

Post  PeacefulAres on Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:32 pm

[quote="mambo"]
PeacefulAres wrote:
mambo wrote:
PeacefulAres wrote:
Sam Ogranaja wrote:I agree with Mambo, Dick and Jun.
I decided to try the hedge trimming method that was discussed by Walter Pall,


I would never treat a bonsai with such disrespect. Hedge pruning techniques are for errrmmm... hedges? I hope that Walter was taking the mickey when he posted that, but knowing him, he probably wasn't!

I think that's an extremely narrow minded perspective. First of all, it's a tree. It has no concern over whether you respect it or not,

Well perhaps your view of bonsai is very different to mine...

Do you think the tree can actually differentiate between what you're doing and something like a rockfall, or even somebody hitting it with a weed whacker? It's a plant, it doesn't have emotions.

If it's very easy to create bonsai with ulmus, celtis, acer, etc, it's more difficult to manage their existing , to keep their architecture.
A little of water ( when the limbs band ) , a little or no fertilizer ( organic ) , no potting , only every 4 5 years, with very small size.
Despite all this , you will have to rebuild everything cut one day, bonsai are never completed

These species of Celtis (Occidentalis and laevigata) don't seem to take well to heavy root pruning. I've had two die rather suddenly, which I'm fairly sure was related to a lack of sufficient feeder roots. I don't think they can handle the same level of root pruning that can be done to and elm or mulberry, which seem nearly indestructible. Their growth habit is also somewhat unpredictable. For instance, this little hackberry has sent out a massive new leader, rather than budding out profusely like the others.



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Re: Getting a bit frustrated with profuse back budders

Post  mambo on Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:30 pm

[quote="PeacefulAres"][quote="mambo"][quote="PeacefulAres"][quote="mambo"][quote="PeacefulAres"]
Sam Ogranaja wrote:I agree with Mambo, Dick and Jun.

Do you think the tree can actually differentiate between what you're doing and something like a rockfall, or even somebody hitting it with a weed whacker? It's a plant, it doesn't have emotions.

Maybe the tree doesn't, but I do and that is just as important. Like I said our view of of how and why we do bonsai is different....

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Re: Getting a bit frustrated with profuse back budders

Post  PeacefulAres on Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:54 pm

[quote="mambo"][quote="PeacefulAres"][quote="mambo"][quote="PeacefulAres"][quote="mambo"]
PeacefulAres wrote:
Sam Ogranaja wrote:I agree with Mambo, Dick and Jun.

Do you think the tree can actually differentiate between what you're doing and something like a rockfall, or even somebody hitting it with a weed whacker? It's a plant, it doesn't have emotions.

Maybe the tree doesn't, but I do and that is just as important. Like I said our view of of how and why we do bonsai is different....

You're not making much sense. You said the hedge trimming method is disrespectful, but if the tree doesn't care, then who is it disrespectful to?

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Re: Getting a bit frustrated with profuse back budders

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