Yamadori or Wild tree collecting, here's what is wrong with it!

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Yamadori or Wild tree collecting, here's what is wrong with it!

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Sun Mar 10, 2013 7:02 pm

If you like to collect wild trees [ and you may wish to sell them] NO PROBLEM.

Why come onto the Internet and say so, it will only encourage others to want to do so, and one person taking is very different to many people doing the same [ and from a single selected area no matter how large.]

So take what you wish, from where ever, just don't advertise on the Internet.

The problem is with too many taking [ and from the same area.]

Many countries have laws against opportunism [ remember the 6' [ 2m ] under the soil belongs to the Government law in some countries [ example - Trinidad ]
Yes, there is also gold in our hills, but it is against law to take it.

I have seen the results of the overtaking, it is ugly to see such greed.
I hope this explains my stand on collecting.
Later.
Khaimraj

* Next we discuss the inflexibility of the word - Artist [ tongue in cheek ] as was used from the 1930's to the 1960's before we began to draw, paint and sculpt as we did in the Renaissance.

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Re: Yamadori or Wild tree collecting, here's what is wrong with it!

Post  Mal B on Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:37 pm

Wow, didn't know Trinidad was that overun with tree collector's, are thing's really that bad over there ?

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Re: Yamadori or Wild tree collecting, here's what is wrong with it!

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:43 pm

Wiped out the whole Toco cliff area back in the 90's had the villagers calling the police.
Done by less than 10 people. How many collected survived ---------- very few , and those died later as the interest in the trees / shrubs faded away.
If you needed an example.
Khaimraj

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Re: Yamadori or Wild tree collecting, here's what is wrong with it!

Post  Mal B on Sun Mar 10, 2013 10:50 pm

Was this to supply the bonsai home market or exported elsewhere ?

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Re: Yamadori or Wild tree collecting, here's what is wrong with it!

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:11 pm

The books at that time, were showing Buttonwood [ as a Shimpaku wannabe ] so everyone wanted one.
That cliff zone produced spectacular examples, as the rest of the island is very gentle, this is the only area.
The collections were for personal use to show off and feel like a real Bonsai master.
It would take too long to grow examples was the follow-on philosophy.
Khaimraj

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Re: Yamadori or Wild tree collecting, here's what is wrong with it!

Post  Mal B on Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:36 pm

Sad so very sad, there have been one or two case's of a similar thing happening in Europe but thankfully non in Britain. We just don't have that amount of collector's to do any kind of real damage, not to mention there's a lot of protected land here, also those who are collecting are fairly knowledgeable and have a very high survival rate. 90% of the tree's you will see for sale are field grown or collected from urban site's and sustainable resourced area's, what we call self sown or regenerated tree's. Britain cleared 99% of it's forrest's over a few short year's and most of that which has grown back is only a couple of hundred year's old, the old ancient forest's are very well protected and I've yet to hear of one single person attempting to lift a tree from these area's. So please don't go and tar every collector of raw material with the same brush, I understand where your coming from as your country has obviously had a bad few year's of very short sighted people raping your countryside, but that just ain't happening over here.


Regards Mal

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Re: Yamadori or Wild tree collecting, here's what is wrong with it!

Post  Nigel Parke on Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:57 pm

Khaimraj,

Agree with you. I recently heard of a guy on our side who is teaching bonsai classes...no problem with that but he is taking his students to one of the few areas where buttonwood with spectacular deadwood grow. I anticipate that in a few years this stand of buttonwood will be decimated if all these newbies decide to start taking trees willy nilly.

I have no issue with people collecting wild trees but when they are newbies who are without the knowledge and techniques needed to ensure the survival of removed trees then one does not need to be soothsayer to see what's coming. Selective collecting by persons who will ensure the survival of trees that are removed is the closest thing to sustainability. A major issue for the Caribbean islands is our size and as in Khaimraj's example and the location I have cited, these are the only areas where trees with these qualities may be obtained.

Nigel

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Re: Yamadori or Wild tree collecting, here's what is wrong with it!

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:36 am

Nigel,

there will always be trees here and there to collect, but the problem as we have it now is what happens when the owners get old or other and can no longer tend to the trees.

Thus far, we have had one guy sell his collection in order to go abroad and apart from what he gave to me, nothing else is alive. [ note here gave to me, even the selling $$$ did not save the trees and they did not go cheaply.]

This is why on this island a Bonsai Museum is needed, and for folk to understand that these trees will change as time passes, some years they will be masterpieces of design, other years not so hot. So respect for age and what we pass onto the future will have to become part of our thinking, otherwise, who will care for a bunch of bushes?

Hence the other reason to leave old trees alone, if there is no way to continue the care for them as the years pass by.

I just wish folk would stop advertising on the Internet, about their great finds.
Any how enough said.
Khaimraj

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Re: Yamadori or Wild tree collecting, here's what is wrong with it!

Post  JimLewis on Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:23 pm

Of course, isolated Island ecosystems are the most delicately balanced, since there is little chance for interaction with other ecosystems.

The same can be said for mountaintop ecosystems which are separated from one another.

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Re: Yamadori or Wild tree collecting, here's what is wrong with it!

Post  mambo on Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:48 pm

Mal B wrote:Britain cleared 99% of it's forrest's over a few short year's and most of that which has grown back is only a couple of hundred year's old, the old ancient forest's are very well protected and I've yet to hear of one single person attempting to lift a tree from these area's.

Regards Mal

They are hardly going to go around publicising it if they are. You can guarantee, if the material is good enough somebody, somewhere will lift it.

In northern Spain, specifically Asturias, yews are protected. The fine is 30,000 euros and there is some jail time. I could go out and buy 100 tomorrow if I had the money!

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Re: Yamadori or Wild tree collecting, here's what is wrong with it!

Post  Lee Brindley on Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:39 pm

I don't know of anybody who openly broadcasts where they collect trees from. Why would they when other people will just help themselves?

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Re: Yamadori or Wild tree collecting, here's what is wrong with it!

Post  will baddeley on Mon Mar 11, 2013 5:42 pm

So therefore the only way to stop collectors digging illegally and or for profit is to stop the Yamadori trade. Stop purchasing this unsustainable source of material or you name and shame? You raised this point or have contributed heavily against the collecting of wild trees Khaimraj, so what is your aim from this line of thread?


Last edited by will baddeley on Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:25 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Yamadori or Wild tree collecting, here's what is wrong with it!

Post  rockm on Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:11 pm

I think this is a case of myopia. What doesn't work for one person has soured him on what has worked for others elsewhere.

The U.S. allows legal collection from public lands, simple as that.

The practice of collection (and selling) yamadori material remains legal and of little consequence in most areas of the U.S. The collectors I've bought from have all collected their material legally and ethically. One particularly adept, knowledgable and talented collector is a forester. He understands the ecology of the sites he's collecting from and how to get his trees out in excellent condition. He is not alone among yamadori collectors in understaning they are taking a natural living resource and have a unique responsibility.

I understand there are unethical collectors out there, but you can't stop that kind of activity. You surely can't stop it by muzzling legal and ethical collectors already on the Web.

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Re: Yamadori or Wild tree collecting, here's what is wrong with it!

Post  JimLewis on Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:49 pm

The U.S. allows legal collection from public lands, simple as that.


Well . . not quite. We can collect on SOME public lands. Vast areas in National Parks and Monuments and Recreation Areas, and in most State Parks, and in National Wilderness Areas are off limits to collecting -- even rocks.

You need a permit to collect plants or animals on all other public lands. These are easy or hard to get depending on the location, sometimes the species to be collected, and always, the person issuing the permits.

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Re: Yamadori or Wild tree collecting, here's what is wrong with it!

Post  rockm on Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:21 pm

"We can collect on SOME public lands. Vast areas in National Parks and Monuments and Recreation Areas, and in most State Parks, and in National Wilderness Areas are off limits to collecting -- even rocks."

Which is why collection practices work here, IMO. There are rightful penalties for collecting in areas that are valued for history, scenery, ecosystems, etc.

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Re: Yamadori or Wild tree collecting, here's what is wrong with it!

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:54 pm

Jim and Rockm,

thanks for responding. Rockm, Jim and the others have heard this fool's tale a few times before. Once in while for the benefit of those new to the forum, I will raise an idea.
Up to now I haven't seen anyone show up with the actual laws that handle removal trees/shrubs from anywhere.

Our laws, especially those that are not active are just old British laws, so in order to collect on lands other than national parks, you pay $2.00 TT for a permit [ might be more today - that's 20 pence or about 30 cents US.]

Will, I have always respected you. Heck I even went out and got some Chinese boxwood, because of some work you were doing and I admired. Humble apologies, I am not going to argue with you or just about anyone else on this list.
Later.
Take care.
Khaimraj

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Re: Yamadori or Wild tree collecting, here's what is wrong with it!

Post  Sam Ogranaja on Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:34 pm

will baddeley wrote:So therefore the only way to stop collectors digging illegally and or for profit is to stop the Yamadori trade. Stop purchasing this unsustainable source of material or you name and shame? You raised this point or have contributed heavily against the collecting of wild trees Khaimraj, so what is your aim from this line of thread?

I chuck my 2 pennies on the discussion table.

Khaimraj certainly doesn't need anyone to defend himself or even to defend his point. It's pretty clear that he feels very strongly against the type of collecting being done by those without ethics, and without the knowledge of the after care process to ensure the survival of the collected subject no matter what their future intentions are. If I saw the land I love get ravaged of their plants in the same way Khaimraj has apparently experienced, I would feel the same way.

I've seen a tremendous amount of extremely high quality, collected bonsai in European shows so you guys either are doing it right, or are unaware of the negative aspect of collecting, or it may even be that that land mass is so large and the eco-system so large that it doesn't matter. I imagine in a small island like the one Khaimraj lives on, the ecological balance is extremely important if only because it's so small. Taking away even a small number of plants from the eco-system could spell a major disaster.

Here in Raleigh, the state has completely shut down the construction of a MAJOR highway (most of which is already built, this would be the last part of the loop) to save a mussel. I don't know much more other than this little mussel has caused blood to boil in those that don't care about it's survival and those that do. But good on the state for haulting the process until they know more about the ecological impact this highway will have even though it would certainly make it easier to get around town.

We don't always know the impact of our choices. Until more is learned, we must practice restraint.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_Garbage_Patch

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Re: Yamadori or Wild tree collecting, here's what is wrong with it!

Post  rockm on Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:45 pm

I may be a something of a fool, at least my wife has called me that more than once. However, there are ample laws and regulations pertaining to collection on federal and state lands in the U.S. I don't know if your comment was about collection in your country or elsewhere.

Here in the U.S. regulations vary from park to park and BLM land, but generally plant collection permits are available at many (not all). Some offer commerical and nursery collection permits, while some provide individual forest product permits, usually a fee is involved per tree or tag.

http://www.fs.usda.gov/wps/portal/fsinternet/!ut/p/c4/04_SB8K8xLLM9MSSzPy8xBz9CP0os3gjAwhwtDDw9_AI8zPyhQoY6BdkOyoCAGixyPg!/?ss=110618&navtype=BROWSEBYSUBJECT&cid=FSE_005558&navid=160110000000000&pnavid=160000000000000&position=Feature*&ttype=detail&pname=Willamette%2520National%2520Forest-%2520Forest%2520Products%2520Permits

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/nv/information.Par.77566.File.dat/collecting_on_publiclands.pdf

http://www.nmda.nmsu.edu/entomology-nursery/nursery-licensing/


http://www.oregon.gov/ODA/PLANT/CONSERVATION/pages/permits.aspx#Commercial_permits

http://www.fs.usda.gov/main/conf/passes-permits


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Re: Yamadori or Wild tree collecting, here's what is wrong with it!

Post  David Willoughby on Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:44 pm

Sam Ogranaja wrote:We don't always know the impact of our choices. Until more is learned, we must practice restraint.

Great line Sam, I often think to myself on how often Bonsai can teach us about life itself in many, many ways.

Interesting topic too the old "Collecting' debate.

Cheers

David

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Re: Yamadori or Wild tree collecting, here's what is wrong with it!

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:49 pm

Thank you very much Rockm,

it was very informative, and it would be interesting to see how the various parks reacted to requests for say 50 to 300 year old trees that could be used for bonsai? Especially if they sent a ranger to examine the potential plant.
Later.
Khaimraj

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Re: Yamadori or Wild tree collecting, here's what is wrong with it!

Post  Guest on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:47 am

In recent IBC times. more topics like this are opening up. I am not saying it is bad nor good,,,

what I observed is the group of people " defending" each side:

On one side I observed the following people posting on/for one side- Yves, Khaimraj, MattA, Stan Kengai, Mambo, Nigel


on The other side of the fence - Hans, Tony, Will, Jun (?) , Sebastian, rockM,

On the neutral side: Marcus, Jim, Jay, Lennard, Lee Brindley, etc..

These are the same people answering these type of thread. Not showing anything here just making some stats. It's up to you viewers to see the environmental issue against bonsai issue on a bonsai forum.



regards,
jun Smile

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Advocate collecting for sale?

Post  will baddeley on Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:40 am

I will never advocated the wholesale clearance and unethical collecting of trees we hear about so often these days. Play Devils advocate maybe.
By far the majority of trees in my collection (80%) have come from forestry land, hedges, gardens, and I consider that a sustainable source and tests my skills base far more than yamadori. Of the wild trees in my garden, about 10 I have swapped or paid collectors for and the rest collected myself.
Im afraid I'm a hypocrite when it comes to wild trees sometimes. I can spout on for ages about micro environments and how little we know about the impact collecting has upon these fragile landscapes. About how we can collect good material from forestry land, waste land or gardens utilise a more sustainable crop. I can argue that individuals collecting for themselves has little impact and how collecting for sale is unethical and greedy and has large failure rates due to after care (or the lack of it). I think most European artists have had a dead Italian Mugo in their garden?
But then I see that piece of material... all the cons go out of the window and the beauty of the material sings out. It was meant to be.
So here I am, propping up and supporting the sales trade and it doesn't matter that I don't buy much. I am still buying! I just try to sift the wheat from the Chaff and hope the collectors I do buy from have some sense of perspective and conscience. There are no guarantees though as raw material can pass through many a dealer before it is finally sold.
Collecting trees for myself is what bonsai is all about but I do try to advocate a good way to go about it.

Jun. I think your lists are wrong as there are yam owners across all three categories Shocked








Last edited by will baddeley on Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:54 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : removal of expression that may cause offence)

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Re: Yamadori or Wild tree collecting, here's what is wrong with it!

Post  Guest on Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:30 am

Hi Will. Nobody here in IBC is advocating illegal digging. And that keeps me wondering why this type of topics keeps in pooping up here. If such thread with a tone of encouragement on illegal digging or promotes such activity is posted ,it is dealt with or deleted by the mods. Like the recently deleted thread that will promote trades on newly dug trees. Try to read the list again of the people and try reading between the lines. Regards, jun Smile


Last edited by jun on Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:54 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Yamadori or Wild tree collecting, here's what is wrong with it!

Post  fiona on Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:35 pm

I am sorry folks, but I object very strongly to the use of the word "rape" which has occurred several times in this thread. Have your "debate" about the rights and wrongs of yamadori whatever you perceive them to be. But please can I ask you NOT to use that word.

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Re: Yamadori or Wild tree collecting, here's what is wrong with it!

Post  BillsBayou on Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:01 pm

fiona wrote:I am sorry folks, but I object very strongly to the use of the word "rape" which has occurred several times in this thread. Have your "debate" about the rights and wrongs of yamadori whatever you perceive them to be. But please can I ask you NOT to use that word.

They must have edited their posts for you. I can't find that word in this thread at all.

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