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killing microorganisms

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NeilDellinger
Kev Bailey
Ka Pabling
landerloos
drjmarrero
bonsaisr
JimLewis
waway
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killing microorganisms - Page 2 Empty Re: killing microorganisms

Post  Rob Kempinski Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:11 pm

Alain Bertrand wrote:You assume that mycelium in the pot wil grow faster than the roots. Why ? And even if it where the case, for the plant to gain something it is needed that energetical efficiency of the mycelium is better that those of the roots. Again, this is far different of the situation in a real soil, where the mycelium is already there and the plant has just to connect itself to this " supply network ".

The relative rate of growth of the roots versus the mycorrizha is not the driving factor. As long as the mycorrizha grows with the roots it will increase root efficiency - its akin to growing roots faster. However, since it is a symbiotic relationship, both organisms benefit from the relationship. The tree gets more nutrients and the mycorrizha uses the carbon provided by the plant for its physiological functions, growth and development. So both grow faster. Your concept of the supply network is throwing you off. It is the symbiotic relationship that adds the benefit to both organism. The tree doesn't just tap into a feed line. The relationship will form its own "supply network" in the pot. The actual chemical transfer does not happen over a large distance (we are talking microscopic distances). Its the increase in the root surface area that helps the tree.

By the way, root pruning and rough handling of roots will hurt the relationship. This is one reason to go easy on pine roots vice say pruning a ficus roots.

Alain Bertrand wrote:

So you saw that pines with lot of mycorrizha grow faster or are healthier ?

Yes, every time I repot. Frankly I have never seen a full mycorrizha colony on a sick pine and my healthy pines always have a full colony when I repot.
Rob Kempinski
Rob Kempinski
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Post  jrodriguez Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:47 pm

Iris quoted:

I am very hesitant about making suggestions to you, because I know how I feel when experts from the tropics try to tell me what to pot my bonsai in, having no understanding of my growing conditions. bounce

And she keeps going!!! I guess that I'll have to live with the sarcastic rhetoric. By the way, I lived in upstate New York and was succesful growing maples, pines, junipers and other temperate trees. I detracted from growing tropicals because the conditions were NEVER optimal and the results were frustrating. Achieving world class quality was next to impossible.
jrodriguez
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Post  Alain Bertrand Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:06 am

Rob Kempinski wrote:

The relative rate of growth of the roots versus the mycorrizha is not the driving factor. As long as the mycorrizha grows with the roots it will increase root efficiency - its akin to growing roots faster.

You are missing a very important point : building roots or mycelium is energetically expensive. The required energy is furnished by the plant so any sugar given by the tree to the fungus will result in less root being built by the plant. This is called "energetical allocation" and this is a very important concept in ecology.

However, since it is a symbiotic relationship, both organisms benefit from the relationship. The tree gets more nutrients and the mycorrizha uses the carbon provided by the plant for its physiological functions, growth and development. So both grow faster.

You are in fact saying that because it is a symbiosis, it has to be always beneficial to both. This is a mistake. Usually, symbiosis is more like balanced parasitism and any decent presentation of what is symbiosis will explain that depending of circumstances, a symbiosis may start to be unbalanced. I suggest you read [url= http://mycorrhiza.ag.utk.edu/reviews/brundrett_mycorrhizal_terms.pdf this article, especially page 479 to have a more accurate view of the problem. It is explicitly stated that in high fertility soils the association becomes detrimental to the plant.


Your concept of the supply network is throwing you off. It is the symbiotic relationship that adds the benefit to both organism. The tree doesn't just tap into a feed line. The relationship will form its own "supply network" in the pot. The actual chemical transfer does not happen over a large distance (we are talking microscopic distances).
You don't understand the situation in a decently established soil. In that kind of soil, there is a full network of mycelium some of them degrading the organic matter, some of them capable of mycorrhizal associations, some of them (few) capable of doing both. When a seedling grows, its roots will reach the network of mycelium, connect to it and start to benefit from it without having to build it first though of course it will have to pay with sugar (mostly) to maintain and develop the association. It don't know why you are stating that transfer is done only on microscopic distances because to my knowledge it is false. See
Mycelial network connects plants
within and across species for nutrient
exchange “Wood-wide web"
from http://alrlab.pdx.edu/courses/mycosphere.pdf or this book extract


Frankly I have never seen a full mycorrizha colony on a sick pine and my healthy pines always have a full colony when I repot.

I observe exactly the same but this is a mistake to think that it supports the idea that mycorrhize in a pot with good fertilization is beneficial to plants because it is as well compatible with the idea that healthy trees also make more sugar that sick trees and thus are able to sustain more fungus.

So, like Jim, I will stick to what controlled experiments usually show : in a well fertilized pot, mycorrhizal association has little if any nutritional benefit, the most interesting part of the association being the exclusion of potential pathogens by installed mycelium.

Regards,

Alain Bertrand
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Post  JimLewis Wed Sep 09, 2009 3:01 pm

So, like Jim, I will stick to what controlled experiments usually show : in a well fertilized pot, mycorrhizal association has little if any nutritional benefit, the most interesting part of the association being the exclusion of potential pathogens by installed mycelium.

Maybe we can end this discussion by saying that if you have 'em, OK. If you don't have 'em, OK too.
JimLewis
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