Internet Bonsai Club
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum

+95
kingsnake
Tom
MKBonsai
BrianS
manumidam
Chris Cochrane
Intricate Simplicity
chench53
KyleT
Maros Belan
DjTommy
Bolero
Gonetopot
Rick36
M. Frary
Van
Toshiro
fiona
Precarious
drbuzzbee
geo
LanceMac10
MichaelS
kimo
Chellis
Leo Schordje
FrankP999
dick benbow
BrianG
crust
TN Jim
Seth Ellwood
Wander
peterkang
Judgie
Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai
Vance Wood
JMcCoy
brett2013
GerhardGerber
lordy
Eric Group
my nellie
steveb
Jaybird
Todd Ellis
jgeanangel
Daygan
AlainK
Richard S
Randy_Davis
Robert J. Baran
David Brunner
William N. Valavanis
Jkd2572
Dale Cochoy
Jesse McMahon
prestontolbert
yamasuri
bingregory
Stephen Krall
DougB
Ashiod
JADunnagan
sayotefries
JudyB
Dan W.
Khaimraj Seepersad
DuncanJH
Dave Murphy
monte
MikeG
augustine
Russell Coker
Kev Bailey
lennard
BigDave
Marty Weiser
Smithy
coh
tmmason10
dorothy7774
gman
Dave Leppo
hometeamrocker
bwaynef
Billy M. Rhodes
Walter Pall
Sam Ogranaja
JimLewis
MartinSweeney
bonsaisr
Auballagh
John Quinn
Arthur Joura
99 posters

Page 36 of 40 Previous  1 ... 19 ... 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40  Next

Go down

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 36 Empty Re: American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum

Post  Richard S Fri Feb 12, 2016 1:48 am

Vance

It's always a mistake I think to assume that great civilisations are going to be particularly moral just because they give rise to great innovations in art, culture, science, medicine or anything else. History suggests that the opposite is far more frequently the case. This is as true in the west as it is in the east and as true today as it was in ancient times.

No doubt feudal Japan was a brutal place to live for many but so too was feudal Europe.

This reality is well worth remembering but it need no more diminish our appreciation of bonsai than our recognition of the grotesque atrocities committed in the name of religion need diminish our appreciation of Europe's beautiful medieval cathedrals.

Regards

Richard
Richard S
Richard S
Member


Back to top Go down

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 36 Empty Re: American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum

Post  Vance Wood Fri Feb 12, 2016 1:56 am

beer city snake wrote:...yet these barbarians perpetuated the art form they "got" from china...

so vance, are you saying that they did not look at it as an art form ?
and if they did, then perhaps khai's point is not so preposterous.

even cave men would draw on walls after doing battle with other cave men or sabre tooth tigers or bigfoot
(or dinosaurs if creationism is to be believed)

I am not saying that they did not understand art quite the opposite. They felt that their entire existence was to glorify the Emperor even in the excellence of artistic endeavors. The entire society was a contradiction. Remember barbarism is a difference of an understanding of cultural norms and goals. This is why our culture has such a problem with other cultures. We tend to judge everything by our own set of standards as the norm.
Vance Wood
Vance Wood
Member


Back to top Go down

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 36 Empty Re: American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:00 am

Hellooooo Kevin,

you know, looking at my passport made me realise that, when I came across Bonsai, it was a day at P.E, and I was admiring a great
old saaman tree. A friend who was half Irish said try Bonsai.

Aside -
I grew up in a place called, Forest Reserve, or the jungle if you prefer.
Trees, such as the silk cotton, just across there, the local almond, the casuarinas where the English beautified the area. It was hill, with
two houses, about 500 feet apart.
Guavas, 3, my own the tallest, climable, King Guava, my sister's Queen Guava, and little brother's Prince Guava.
There was a conifer from Italy, the "male" form of the cypress as the Italians say it.
Had a stingless bee nest in the heart, which I would interfere with and be running like a madman across the lawn Laughing

Down the hill, lay-lay with it's bright orange and yellow berries, a delonia rex of orange flowers [ come in cold red,yellow red, lime and golden
yellow as well. ]

Trees with vines to swing from, a boy's wonderworld and ravines with water for guppies and guabines.

Continue -
Anyhow sometime when I was 14 or 15, I looked into an encyclopedia and found an image of a black pine.

You know when I was 10 or so, I came across a book at my mother's friend's house - "We are not the first" by Eric Von Daniken.
Mayans, Incas and Aztecs, gods and spacemen [ read more of his books ] wanted to be an Archaeologist, but the desire the desire
to create overcame the desire to dig up.
I lived on books of Mayans, Incas and some Aztec, as well as Mythology and Chinese stuffies.

When I finished school at 16 / 17 after A'levels [ exams for entry into University ] I worked for 3 months at an art store, waiting to
go to P.A.F,A [ Pennsylvania Academy of the Fine Arts ]
With my $9.00 US for 5 and 1/2 days of work, I bought Kamuti and Successful Bonsai Growing.

My first victim was a Poui [ tabebuia serratifolia ] in yard clay.
I snuck it to the US, didn't know about plant restrictions.
The rooster ate it when we went Lafayette, L.a,, and then the winter got him, poetic justice.

In Pennsylvania,Philadelphia, I saw Chase Rosade's, exhibition at Wannamakers [ spelling ? ] and I visited his nursery later that
year.
Next two years found me at Innocenti's outside Florence, Italy.

The rest is my history.

You know what, my love of trees got me into Bonsai, and because of my Chinese books on Ceramics, Pottery, Ink Painting
and Literature, I wanted. like my painting to learn the technique of how - the craft.
So in Studio Cecil-Graves [ now the Florence Academy and Studio Cecil ] I learnt the craft of oil painting, the traditional
way of how to draw and oil paint.
So too with Bonsai, I learnt the craft.

You know what for a young boy, just learning the craft was exciting, and I didn't know anything about all these politics.
When I read about what goes on in the world of Bonsai -------------- it makes me sad --------- Sad

I am extremely glad that I learnt - the how - minus the bits about whose Bonsai is better, or style is more important
and that is part of why I am fading away.
This bickering and chest pounding and money making has become too painful.

I just love trees.
Until.
Khaimraj

Vance,

the Chinese Intellectual, would use Scholar stones, tea, wine, a form of early Tree Penjing [ Bonsai ] to stimulate the mind,
for Calligraphy, Ink painting and Poetry.

Just read more deeply.

What exists today is a watered down version for John Publics practice.

Additionally, the Chinese books called Tree Penjing ------- Garden Craft.

It only became ART when $$$ for sales to the West became popular.
Difference between ART and craft = $$$ [ from the folk on the Clay Art Forum]

I no longer bother with the Bonsai = Art part, as I learnt, that when you die, the trees get sold and the new owner's name
goes with the tree.
You cease to exist.

Not quite like paintings with a signature, in a museum.
Restoration goes to great extremes, to keep the work ------- original ------- under the signed name.

The tree lives on, you don't and are forgotten. Not quite fame or immortality or an achievement or even a memory.








Khaimraj Seepersad
Khaimraj Seepersad
Member


Back to top Go down

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 36 Empty Re: American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:01 am

Vance,

Chinese scholars and Japanese wannabes are too different worlds.
Please read more deeply.
Respectfully.
Khaimraj
Khaimraj Seepersad
Khaimraj Seepersad
Member


Back to top Go down

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 36 Empty Re: American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum

Post  Vance Wood Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:03 am

Richard S wrote:Vance

It's always a mistake I think to assume that great civilisations are going to be particularly moral just because they give rise to great innovations in art, culture, science, medicine or anything else. History suggests that the opposite is far more frequently the case. This is as true in the west as it is in the east and as true today as it was in ancient times.

No doubt feudal Japan was a brutal place to live for many but so too was feudal Europe.

This reality is well worth remembering but it need no more diminish our appreciation of bonsai than our recognition of the grotesque atrocities committed in the name of religion need diminish our appreciation of Europe's beautiful medieval cathedrals.

Regards

Richard

I am not sure now how we got to this point but; someone was commenting on what was a stated fact, that bonsai was a stepping stone contrived to stimulate interest in other artistic endeavors, a point I argued against. I was not trying to justify or condemn specifically the moral foundation of a culture, just my perceived hypocrisy of it being so enlightened and so brutal at the same time.
Vance Wood
Vance Wood
Member


Back to top Go down

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 36 Empty Re: American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum

Post  redmoon Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:44 am

Gentlemen and lady,
Not sure I quite get the golf analogy. Hitting a ball with a stick is as artless as it gets. I do see a parallel regarding the Black American Blues: None of the subsequent forms were an improvement.

Perhaps the real struggle here is a struggle for an identity. What besides a tin-horn dictator does every break-away republic need? A Flag. Something to rally ‘round. A name would be good. Western Bonsai or American Bonsai doesn’t work. Those names will be forever be connected to Japan through the language (bonsai). Naturalistic Container Gardening doesn’t exactly trip lightly off the tongue. That dog won’t hunt. Ideas?
redmoon
redmoon
Member


Back to top Go down

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 36 Empty Re: American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum

Post  Vance Wood Fri Feb 12, 2016 3:04 am

redmoon wrote:Gentlemen and lady,
Not sure I quite get the golf analogy. Hitting a ball with a stick is as artless as it gets. I do see a parallel regarding the Black American Blues: None of the subsequent forms were an improvement.

Perhaps the real struggle here is a struggle for an identity. What besides a tin-horn dictator does every break-away republic need? A Flag. Something to rally ‘round. A name would be good. Western Bonsai or American Bonsai doesn’t work. Those names will be forever be connected to Japan through the language (bonsai). Naturalistic Container Gardening doesn’t exactly trip lightly off the tongue. That dog won’t hunt. Ideas?

A Wheel by any other name is still a wheel, don't try to re-invent the thing, only make it better.
Vance Wood
Vance Wood
Member


Back to top Go down

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 36 Empty Re: American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum

Post  kingsnake Fri Feb 12, 2016 5:05 am

Vance Wood wrote:If it were not for the artistic foundation of Japanese bonsai, and if it were not for the Japanese artists teaching and sharing their culture with us, there would be no interest in bonsai at all.

When something occurs in one fashion, there's no way it could have possibly occurred in any other way?

Vance Wood wrote:The art by itself, being expressed as trees in pots, would not have enough unique beauty to attract the kind of following that bonsai has today, without the beauty imparted by the Japanese.

Vance Wood wrote:There is one thing that has to be present in Bonsai no matter what style we  prefer to follow;  The tree must be beautiful.  Beautiful always flys no matter how many rules it breaks; no matter what artistic school it embraces.  If you cannot produce beauty in your trees they don't matter.
 
Without the elements and principles of art being applied in a single style, they can are no longer effective?

According to whose definition of beauty?  If beauty is in the eye of the beholder, how is an artist to know whether he has crossed the threshold for his expression to matter while he is in the process of expressing it?  And if he isn't to know, why should he care whether his expression is "beautiful" and therefore "matters" to the beholder or not?

Vance Wood wrote:If you say the word bonsai almost everyone will picture in their minds a little Japanese looking tree in a pot.  If you say Pensai, Penjing, and other forms of the Chinese word most people would be asking for an explanation.

This is why we have languages.  They're an attempt to standardize communication, but they're far from being as perfect as you imply.  If I say the word "red" and you picture the shade "Scarlet", I might picture the shade "Ruby".  You're attempting to standardize a broad term, "bonsai", into something that's very specific to you personally, a "Japanese looking tree", and you expect everyone else to do the same.  Sorry, it's not going to happen!

Vance Wood wrote:I am not certain that I am welcome to post any kind of reply to this question, understanding that I seem to create havoc wherever I intrude myself even understanding that this is a public forum.

That, once again, is your opinion.  However, I believe it may be caused by your continual stating of personal opinions as facts, subjecting other peoples' forms of expression to those opinions in a sweeping fashion, and receiving equally strong opinions stated to the contrary of your own.

kingsnake
Member


Back to top Go down

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 36 Empty Re: American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum

Post  Richard S Fri Feb 12, 2016 11:03 am

Vance

I think most civilisations manage to balance being enlightened and brutal at the same time. It appears to be part of the human condition. My only point was that feudal Japan was probably not unique in this sense and that it need not effect our appreciation of their bonsai.

Moving swiftly on to an arguably more relevant point, I'd like to comment on your view that bonsai should be beautiful.

I have no problem with beautiful bonsai (a delicately ramified, multi trunk Japanese Maple in a shallow container springs to mind) but then I rather like the grotesque as well. I'm thinking perhaps of Sebastian Sandev's Carpinus collection! Ok so some of Sebastian's trees are beautiful and some exhibit beauty in their own way but many of his best known are not really beautiful at all. In fact some could be described as quite ugly in conventional terms.

They are still powerfully impressive bonsai though, at least in my opinion.

An analogy might be to something like Picasso's Guernica. Not I think by any bodies standards a "beautiful" painting and certainly not to every bodies taste but still I think most would agree that it is a powerfully impressive piece of art.

I think your right to say that beauty will always fly, in the sense that it will always have it's place but I don't necessarily agree that it need be the defining characteristic of great bonsai.

Regards

Richard
Richard S
Richard S
Member


Back to top Go down

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 36 Empty Re: American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum

Post  Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai Fri Feb 12, 2016 1:16 pm

richard - many of us find the grotesque to be beautiful. Wink

khai - so glad you havent actually left us and i really appreciate the brief story of your youth... i had seen bits and pieces here and there, but never the timeline of snapshots you provided... and i do see them in my mind as snapshots... things i can actually picture, from the guava trees to the vine swinging to the guppies... it very much parallels my childhood (minus the later higher edjamakashun), except for me it was oaks, maples and pines - and we did have vines to swing from like johnny wisemueller and guppies to catch and fill our buckets with... and erik van danniken was also my introduction the the possibilities of us not being as alone as our collective hubris may imply.

as i wrote the above i realized it has not much to do with the subject at hand, but the subject at hand is getting tiresome for the same reasons you stated... so tough shit if i stray...

and you have made me melancholy for youth, but also you have made me glad to have never fully matured to the point that i can not take my grandsons, nieces and nephews out into the forest to explore the same things... and if through that, bonsai follows, well that would just be icing on an already delicious cake (my niece is already enthralled, but she is 12 so lets hope it lasts)...

huh... maybe i did somehow bring it back to the subject at hand... ? Wink
Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai
Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai
Member


Back to top Go down

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 36 Empty Re: American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum

Post  Vance Wood Fri Feb 12, 2016 1:32 pm

kingsnake wrote:
Vance Wood wrote:If it were not for the artistic foundation of Japanese bonsai, and if it were not for the Japanese artists teaching and sharing their culture with us, there would be no interest in bonsai at all.

When something occurs in one fashion, there's no way it could have possibly occurred in any other way?

Vance Wood wrote:The art by itself, being expressed as trees in pots, would not have enough unique beauty to attract the kind of following that bonsai has today, without the beauty imparted by the Japanese.

Vance Wood wrote:There is one thing that has to be present in Bonsai no matter what style we  prefer to follow;  The tree must be beautiful.  Beautiful always flys no matter how many rules it breaks; no matter what artistic school it embraces.  If you cannot produce beauty in your trees they don't matter.
 
Without the elements and principles of art being applied in a single style, they can are no longer effective?

According to whose definition of beauty?  If beauty is in the eye of the beholder, how is an artist to know whether he has crossed the threshold for his expression to matter while he is in the process of expressing it?  And if he isn't to know, why should he care whether his expression is "beautiful" and therefore "matters" to the beholder or not?

Vance Wood wrote:If you say the word bonsai almost everyone will picture in their minds a little Japanese looking tree in a pot.  If you say Pensai, Penjing, and other forms of the Chinese word most people would be asking for an explanation.

This is why we have languages.  They're an attempt to standardize communication, but they're far from being as perfect as you imply.  If I say the word "red" and you picture the shade "Scarlet", I might picture the shade "Ruby".  You're attempting to standardize a broad term, "bonsai", into something that's very specific to you personally, a "Japanese looking tree", and you expect everyone else to do the same.  Sorry, it's not going to happen!

Vance Wood wrote:I am not certain that I am welcome to post any kind of reply to this question, understanding that I seem to create havoc wherever I intrude myself even understanding that this is a public forum.

That, once again, is your opinion.  However, I believe it may be caused by your continual stating of personal opinions as facts, subjecting other peoples' forms of expression to those opinions in a sweeping fashion, and receiving equally strong opinions stated to the contrary of your own.

Snake:  You wrote:  When something occurs in one fashion, there's no way it could have possibly occurred in any other way?

Are you asking or telling me?  The fact remains that it did not happen in any other way.  It is as I said previously;  if you say bonsai almost any one with a modicum of knowledge of what's happening around them will know, or have an idea of what you are talking about.   If you use one of the Chinese terms to some of the same people, they may be asking you for an explanation.  Here again; if you say golf most people will know what you are talking about.  My father was fond of calling golf, Cow Pasture Pool.  I don't think I have to explain this further.

It seems we keep coming back to the same place:  Art.  You focused on my statement that a bonsai, regardless of what style or what rules are violated, must be beautiful.    It must have appeal would probably be a better word.  However;  you can make a bonsai look like a pepperoni pizza if you wish, but understand that Khai is right, the tree will not live longer, as a work of art, credited to you, after you pass. The fact that you did this to this tree or did that to it will be irrelevant.
Vance Wood
Vance Wood
Member


Back to top Go down

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 36 Empty Re: American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum

Post  Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai Fri Feb 12, 2016 1:46 pm

Vance Wood wrote:
Snake:  You wrote:

no i didnt... perhaps kingsnake would like to toss out a real name to avoid any further confusion.

beer city snake (nickname since teenager) = kevin stoeveken

kingsnake (new handle for long time visitor) = ___________________ ?
Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai
Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai
Member


Back to top Go down

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 36 Empty Re: American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum

Post  Vance Wood Fri Feb 12, 2016 1:52 pm

beer city snake wrote:
Vance Wood wrote:
Snake:  You wrote:

no i didnt... perhaps kingsnake would like to toss out a real name to avoid any further confusion.

beer city snake (nickname since teenager) = kevin stoeveken

kingsnake (new handle for long time visitor) = ___________________ ?

You are right, my bad, and this is the reason I dispise pseudonyms, it is too hard to remember one and always associate it with an individual. The tendency for me to confuse them is a constant threat understanding that I have a problem with names to begin with.
Vance Wood
Vance Wood
Member


Back to top Go down

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 36 Empty Re: American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum

Post  Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:36 pm

no sweat and understandable...
sent you a PM
Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai
Kevin S - Wisco Bonsai
Member


Back to top Go down

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 36 Empty Re: American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum

Post  kingsnake Fri Feb 12, 2016 6:34 pm

To many people, "bonsai" is simply a small tree in a pot.  For Dan Robinson it's something that resembles the trees that he has personally seen.  For Nick Lenz it's a way for him to combine a tree with something else... for what purpose I do not know...

The association of the word "bonsai" is going to be different for each person that you ask.  I would venture to guess that most people know very little about Japanese aesthetics, styles, rules, traditions, culture, or any other method of characterizing a bonsai as being uniquely Japanese, other than origins of the word and its geographical associations.  There is hardly an "understanding" present at all.  It's only later, when the "rules" of bonsai and Japanese traditions, and styles are used as a filter through which a person's tree must pass in order to be acknowledged institutionally, might a person begin to associate the word "bonsai" with the Japanese; or they may associate it with something else entirely different.

I say "as it is practiced today" because even Japan's own "traditions" have hardly remained static over time, despite perhaps popular belief to the contrary.  This change in style seems to be a normal part of human nature, perhaps due to desire for change, rebellion, innovation, or whatever multitude of reasons.  Clothing has undergone changes from today, the 1990's, the 1980's, 1970's, 1960's, etc.  Style changes quickly.  A shirt from the 70's might be created from the same material in common with a shirt from the 1800's.  It also has holes for your arms and head.  However, there are very few people who would hear a shirt in the 1970's and associate it with its 1800's predecessors.  Instead, they hear the word "shirt" and associate it with the style that's either the most prevalent currently or is currently preferred by them personally; it will always be a garment, often made of cotton, with some form of sleeves and a hole to put your head through at the top.

People hear the word "bonsai" and will probably always associate it with a tree, a container, and the elements and principles of art in some form.  Those elements seem to be systematic to the term.  How those elements are applied and arranged does change, perhaps dramatically.  This is known as style.  With enough changes of style and innovation of tools and techniques, few (if any) people may actively associate the cultural roots of bonsai with Japan and any of its styles anymore than they associate the cultural roots of a shirt with its origins.  The elements and principles of art, which are as systematic to bonsai as they are to oil paint, marble, vector, or any other medium, and will be present regardless of what stylistic associations people may hold with the word "bonsai" either now or in the future.

To imply that most peoples' "understanding" of bonsai comes from a but single style, Japanese or otherwise, is a generalization which is bound to be inaccurate currently and highly subject to further change later on.  This is not due to the merits, or lack-there-of, pertaining to anything Japanese, but rather to the broad range of influences a person is exposed to.  For Dan Robinson, these were the trees he on the West Coast.  To Walter Pall it was the Alps.  For others it might be street trees in the city, bonsai for sale in a mall, or photos they've seen online; none of which are Japanese.

Contrary to other facets of life, when it comes to bonsai, people seem to be desperately clinging to a single style, Japanese or otherwise, and attempting to enforce theirs as the "official" standard that must be accepted and propagated.  I treat this as being equal to the fallacy of King Canute.  Any single style, regardless of its origination, is unlikely to survive and those people are likely to become irrelevant.  To imply that any style is the pinnacle is purely personal opinion and should be treated as such.  To imply that a style is the alpha and omega is simply ignorance and should be treated accordingly as well.

kingsnake
Member


Back to top Go down

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 36 Empty Re: American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum

Post  AlainK Sat Feb 13, 2016 8:36 am

Vance Wood wrote:
You are right, my bad, and this is the reason I dispise pseudonyms, it is too hard to remember one and always associate it with an individual.  The tendency for me to confuse them is a constant threat understanding that I have a problem with names to begin with.  

ThumbsUp

AlainK
AlainK
Member


Back to top Go down

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 36 Empty Re: American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad Sat Feb 13, 2016 10:32 am

Guys and Gals,

do you realise a few realities -

[1] Arthur described himself as - a Gardener -, one who knows how, but only does on work, not at home.
Noted this situation years ago down here in Agriculture - many folk work in the various offices of Agriculture,
but home was devoid of greenery.
A bit odd.

[2] As regards - DOING YOUR OWN THING [ as we say down here ] in order to not fall into mediocre work, as Design goes

[a] Some form of study - Trees mature or old age shapes - example - the Swamp Cypress.
So you note 10 to 20 examples of distinctive shapes of the Swamp Cypress and figure through Drawing from reality or
Photos, what you consider to be best parts.
Then work that into several trees, ultimately producing an individual or individuals, that in one glance says - Swamp Cypress.

Unfortunately, you will have to build off of what is already there, no need to re-invent the wheel.

So you have to have some way of starting and mastering what is already there.
Much slower to do with a growing situation, than say a pencil and paper and oil paint and canvas.

[b] Note that during the 12th or 13th centuries, there was cross fertilisation in Art in Europe and China.
Eventually the European became European, as did the Chinese become Chinese.

[c] The problem of something becoming your own, is if you have the personality, the training or technique
if you prefer, to grow into what you should be.

So it is no good saying, WE DOING WE OWN THING - if you have nothing to say, no technique and have not
studied nature.

[d] Honesty time---------

how many of you have actually sat and studied through drawing or other, mature and old age
examples of a single species of tree ?

First the tree, then the pot and finally how to display. Evolve.

A lot of time and energy to put into something that often only consumes $$.
Is of no real significance as day to day living goes.
AND has been around for centuries in a polished form.

Think about the discipline needed.
Laters.
Khaimraj

* Ever wonder how lucky I am to be a - Fine Artist - grows veggies Rodale organic farming style and Bonsai is a hobby and I can do pottery. Evil or Very Mad  Laughing
Khaimraj Seepersad
Khaimraj Seepersad
Member


Back to top Go down

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 36 Empty Re: American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum

Post  AlainK Sat Feb 13, 2016 5:52 pm

Discipline?

How I hate this word!

Knowledge, yes! The rest is a matter of taste.

Cultivation, techniques, whatever you achieve through technique. As long as you can keep a tree alive and healthy, why try to conform to norms, or "discipline"? Being someone's "disciple" is not my cup of tea.

Of course, knowledge means learning, but I much prefer an autodidactic approach, learning from what "turns you on" rather than practising scales for years before learning what pleasure, or inspiration you can get from listening to JS Bach, Eurythmics or Frank Zappa. I learnt a lot from very good artists (I like to call them artists) in my club, some of them top-members/trainers in France. This doesn't mean I always agreed with their suggestions about the design of a tree (1).

I will go as far as to say that bonsai is like religion: without undue immodesty, I think I know a lot more about religions (plural) than many, but I'm an atheist. Many know more about bonsai techniques than I will ever do, yet, I'm not ready to be part of a cult.

(1) : a song to take some distance from that overly serious discussion. It was written by a very popular French singer after a painful separation, you probably didn't know that, did you? another example of how culture is permeable  Cool




Cheesy, isn't it? Very Happy

Even cheesier, the French (original) version (first release: 1967):



AlainK
AlainK
Member


Back to top Go down

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 36 Empty Re: American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum

Post  Vance Wood Sat Feb 13, 2016 7:01 pm

AlainK wrote:Discipline?

How I hate this word!

Knowledge, yes! The rest is a matter of taste.

Cultivation, techniques, whatever you achieve through technique. As long as you can keep a tree alive and healthy, why try to conform to norms, or "discipline"? Being someone's "disciple" is not my cup of tea.

Of course, knowledge means learning, but I much prefer an autodidactic approach, learning from what "turns you on" rather than practising scales for years before learning what pleasure, or inspiration you can get from listening to JS Bach, Eurythmics or Frank Zappa. I learnt a lot from very good artists (I like to call them artists) in my club, some of them top-members/trainers in France. This doesn't mean I always agreed with their suggestions about the design of a tree (1).

I will go as far as to say that bonsai is like religion: without undue immodesty, I think I know a lot more about religions (plural) than many, but I'm an atheist. Many know more about bonsai techniques than I will ever do, yet, I'm not ready to be part of a cult.

(1) : a song to take some distance from that overly serious discussion. It was written by a very popular French singer after a painful separation, you probably didn't know that, did you? another example of how culture is permeable  Cool




Cheesy, isn't it? Very Happy

Even cheesier, the French (original) version (first release: 1967):




You just have to be careful that in your desire to be the ultimate non-conformist that you don't develop bonsai that look more like salad on a stick than anything resembling a bonsai.  In order to be what one would consider and advancement in what we know as bonsai, that which you create must be perceivable as a bonsai even if it is a really bad and really ugly bonsai.  A bowl of Lemon Jello will not pass as an original form of bonsai, no matter how you argue the point or brow beat those who disagree with it.

You can make your bonsai as ugly, or strange or convoluted and twisted as you prefer. Just remember there are two aspects to art: Those who create art and those who view it. If those who view it;--- hate what those who create ---have created, then what will you do? Yell at them,---- because they did not understand the genius you displayed and drew forth from you fertile imagination?

You will find yourself in the same position of God; who created, what he created, for those who hated what he created. Interesting conundrum. The only way of not being held accountable for what you are doing or creating is not to demonstrate it. Which brings up another issue: Bonsai should be seen and the artistry should be appreciated, which leaves the conclusion that if you are not going to show your bonsai because your artistry is so superior and above the rest of us mere mortals it would be like God letting us mortal's read the scroll with the 7 seals. It is equally as bad to discuss that which you are unwilling to show or prove. We are left with one conclusion: You may be full of crap.
Vance Wood
Vance Wood
Member


Back to top Go down

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 36 Empty Re: American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum

Post  AlainK Sat Feb 13, 2016 7:49 pm

Once again, we can see a major cultural difference here, the same as those that built up one's views of the world, and bonsai:


(...) You will find yourself in the same position of God; who created, what he created, for those who hated what he created. (...)

Etc: typical of the rethorics of evangelists. No, I maintain, the earth is not flat, and there is no "God".


(...) A bowl of Lemon Jello will not pass as an original form of bonsai, no matter how you argue the point or brow beat those who disagree with it. (...)

???  Rolling Eyes

Vance, this is total nonsense, it doesn't mean a thing. You call that an argument?  Crying or Very sad

I wanted to take this thread on the lighter side, apparently we don't have the same sense of humour. as a French comedian asked: "Can we laugh of everything? Yes, but not with anyone."

Idea






I wonder what Monsieur Paul would make of that...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_%28bakery%29
AlainK
AlainK
Member


Back to top Go down

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 36 Empty Re: American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum

Post  Tom Sat Feb 13, 2016 10:59 pm

Vance Wood wrote: Bonsai should be seen and the artistry should be appreciated, which leaves the conclusion that if you are not going to show your bonsai because your artistry is so superior and above the rest of us mere mortals  it would be like God letting us mortal's read the scroll with the 7 seals.  It is equally as bad to discuss that which you are unwilling to show or prove.  We are left with one conclusion:  You may be full of crap.

Vance, I am not sure if it is Alain you are addressing this to personally, or if it is just a general theme.

However, if it is Alain personally, then I will say - because he probably won't - that he regularly shows his work, here and elsewhere. He is modest about his trees, and while they may not be spectacular Kokufu winners (sorry Alain! Smile ) his work is typically elegant and sensitively styled. It is as far from 'salad on a stick' as your own trees are.

In general I think there is too much heat in this discussion.
Tom
Tom
Member


Back to top Go down

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 36 Empty Re: American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum

Post  Vance Wood Sat Feb 13, 2016 11:48 pm

Tom wrote:
Vance Wood wrote: Bonsai should be seen and the artistry should be appreciated, which leaves the conclusion that if you are not going to show your bonsai because your artistry is so superior and above the rest of us mere mortals  it would be like God letting us mortal's read the scroll with the 7 seals.  It is equally as bad to discuss that which you are unwilling to show or prove.  We are left with one conclusion:  You may be full of crap.

Vance, I am not sure if it is Alain you are addressing this to personally, or if it is just a general theme.

However, if it is Alain personally, then I will say - because he probably won't - that he regularly shows his work, here and elsewhere. He is modest about his trees, and while they may not be spectacular Kokufu winners (sorry Alain! Smile ) his work is typically elegant and sensitively styled. It is as far from 'salad on a stick' as your own trees are.

In general I think there is too much heat in this discussion.

Tom: I was not addressing his work personally, I was addressing his ideas and how they can be taken to extremes. That's what you get for getting in on the end of a conversation. Have you been hiding somewhere?
Vance Wood
Vance Wood
Member


Back to top Go down

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 36 Empty Re: American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum

Post  fiona Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:46 am

Oh. For. Howevermanyasterisksyoulike's. Sake.


I've just about had enough with this thread.

Shut up with the personal insults will y'all.  I have seriously never felt so much like quitting this entire forum as I do right now.

A good, nay a great thread, in danger of going into tatters.  

Again!


*insert suitable emoticons here depending on whether you think I am being serious or sarcastic. LOL *
fiona
fiona
Member


Back to top Go down

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 36 Empty Too Serious

Post  Bolero Sun Feb 14, 2016 1:59 pm

Awww you are being too Sensitive and Serious....let it run, all good comments, Vance is just telling it like it is from his POV...we have a lot of Bonsai Snobs on the IBC and sometimes they need sorting out...

Its interesting to here AJ's Reply's to WP and I am looking forward to his 3rd response on the subject of "Just what is Bonsai anyway"(Paraphrased)...

Personally I believe Bonsai is the Tree Art of Chinese and Japanese efforts... often Centuries old and always Inspiring.

I lack the patience, time, and temperment to do True Bonsai following Chinese and Japanese examples.....so I do (Bonsai) Landscape Gardening... instant, so to speak, gratification.

I also do a lot of smallish Japanese Maple Saikei,Penjing... again instant gratification.

and I truly appreciate and admire the older(as in many years older) examples of True Bonsai....
Bolero
Bolero
Member


Back to top Go down

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 36 Empty Re: American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum

Post  Vance Wood Sun Feb 14, 2016 2:09 pm

Thank You. I wish I knew what it is that brings out the worst in people. Everybody seems to think I'm a horrible person but no one can tell me how or why.
Vance Wood
Vance Wood
Member


Back to top Go down

American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum - Page 36 Empty Re: American Bonsai at the NC Arboretum

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 36 of 40 Previous  1 ... 19 ... 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40  Next

Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum