Yak'adori or Yam'adori

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Yak'adori or Yam'adori

Post  Guest on Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:28 pm

Hello,

NOT meant as discussion, but informative (except the PS on the bottom)

For those who would be interested, I'm working on a way to get the issue of unethical (or illegal) yamadori collection more in the picture. Goal is to create more awareness, in general, before any collecting takes place.

I'm thinking of:
- some sort of online campaign or petition, where one can state his/her support,
- online message to be put on blogs, link, etc
- some kind of label/stamp which you could use to put on your site or blog
- maybe further informative tab on my blog, like sources where you can find info about protected areags (or addresses that can provide this)
- some sort of checklist about ethics (in case its legally ok to collect, but you find its still in protected area)

Offcourse I'll start on my blog, thats in dutch, but i think i'll make an english version.

This is meant as a 'lounge' topic, but its informative, I dont seek comments. I think some could be interested, so i'll update the topic as soon as there's more available.

However, people who would want to help with this, can offer their services (e.g. someone who can produce label/stamp)

cheers

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Re: Yak'adori or Yam'adori

Post  Guest on Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:32 pm

I finished my 'label' which I also put on my blog as permanent feature.

Anyone can copy it to add to his/her blog/website; as long as you keep the copyright notice which is mentioned on the bottom. If you want a version without copyright, PM me, so I know where it'll be used (blog or website link).

I consider this an awakening, promoting the general awareness, and ethics. The more people actively support this, the more the issue can openly be discussed, and the more proud and joy everyone will have whilst talking about their legally and ethically collected plants


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Re: Yak'adori or Yam'adori

Post  JimLewis on Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:42 pm

The only people who know what "yamadori" means are bonsai people. Are they the only ones you intend to keep from digging?

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Re: Yak'adori or Yam'adori

Post  Guest on Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:46 pm

JimLewis wrote:The only people who know what "yamadori" means are bonsai people. Are they the only ones you intend to keep from digging?

...sure...

i'm not saving the world Jim, I'm not superman...

at least i offer myself up to be the first, besided the talk that is written everywhere.

have fun.

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Re: Yak'adori or Yam'adori

Post  Jkd2572 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:47 pm

I suppose this is a big problem in Belgium??? What are the reasons for wanting to campaign against this?

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Re: Yak'adori or Yam'adori

Post  Guest on Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:50 pm

Jkd2572 wrote:I suppose this is a big problem in Belgium??? What are the reasons for wanting to campaign against this?

i'm not going to make it a discussion i said earlier. Many have told me this is a thing which has been discussed over and over. I do what I do, up to you to read the message. If you want to know if its a belgian problem, use google and type 'yamadori bonsai' or 'yamadori collecting'. have fun googling

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Re: Yak'adori or Yam'adori

Post  PeacefulAres on Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:13 pm

Honestly, the kind of people who would illegally dig trees out of protected environments, are probably not going to be swayed by this.

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Re: Yak'adori or Yam'adori

Post  Guest on Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:23 pm

PeacefulAres wrote:Honestly, the kind of people who would illegally dig trees out of protected environments, are probably not going to be swayed by this.

offcourse. but a start is a start, any start, and i start with myself and my blog. The message getting noticed is a good thing. Imagine a general awareness, and people start asking (more) questions about the provenance of the tree they so eagerly want to buy. So its not only as a direct message. And its not because i post/have this label on my blog that is says 'you, dear visitor, are a criminal'...that is mindplay, its only a personal statement about my bonsai. If people feel offended, maybe its a case of certain un-ethics ;-). If people want to copy it to their own blog/site, go ahead. If not a single yamadori artist or dealer ever posts it, well its because they dont read IBC or the deliberately avoid to post it ;-) or perhaps they are working to build their own label ;-)

thats all folks, please understand i wont discuss my reasons/goals any further; or otherwise i'll get the same answers as in previous topics and nobody wanted that discussion.


Last edited by yves71277 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:26 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : textual)

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Re: Yak'adori or Yam'adori

Post  PeacefulAres on Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:39 pm

yves71277 wrote:
PeacefulAres wrote:Honestly, the kind of people who would illegally dig trees out of protected environments, are probably not going to be swayed by this.

offcourse. but a start is a start, any start, and i start with myself and my blog. The message getting noticed is a good thing. Imagine a general awareness, and people start asking (more) questions about the provenance of the tree they so eagerly want to buy. So its not only as a direct message. And its not because i post/have this label on my blog that is says 'you, dear visitor, are a criminal'...that is mindplay, its only a personal statement about my bonsai. If people feel offended, maybe its a case of certain un-ethics ;-). If people want to copy it to their own blog/site, go ahead. If not a single yamadori artist or dealer ever posts it, well its because they dont read IBC or the deliberately avoid to post it ;-) or perhaps they are working to build their own label ;-)

thats all folks, please understand i wont discuss my reasons/goals any further; or otherwise i'll get the same answers as in previous topics and nobody wanted that discussion.

I think the problem is in your approach; it's too negative. Your example is just as likely to turn the good people away from the website as it is to raise awareness about this issue. Even if the message is positive, projecting it in an aggressive way can have the effect of making people feel attacked or excluded. When you're training a dog, you don't hit them, because it doesn't teach them anything except to be afraid of you. The same principle applies here.

Rather than putting a big banner on a website that says no to digging in protected areas, it would be a lot wiser for these sites to encourage collecting trees in an ecologically friend way. I.E. removing unwanted landscaping plants or trees that are set to be destroyed in the future, due to demolition/construction.



Last edited by PeacefulAres on Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:36 pm; edited 1 time in total

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YAK'ADORI

Post  BigDave on Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:18 pm

You forgot the other and maybe more important one...




Last edited by BigDave on Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Yak'adori or Yam'adori

Post  fiona on Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:20 pm

I agree with Peaceful Ares. A new page or section on your website explaining your principles in an non aggressive way (as you yourself have said - a "this is how I do it, now it's up to you" approach) would work far better than your graphic. I'm afraid that just reminds me of all those pics on Facebook that we are all supposed to Like or Share to "raise awareness" of something but which become little other than trite and meaningless in a very short space of time.

I applaud your attempt to do something, but I don't think you would do much other than hack people off with the graphic.

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Re: Yak'adori or Yam'adori

Post  Guest on Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:13 am

fiona wrote:I agree with Peaceful Ares. A new page or section on your website explaining your principles in an non aggressive way (as you yourself have said - a "this is how I do it, now it's up to you" approach) would work far better than your graphic. I'm afraid that just reminds me of all those pics on Facebook that we are all supposed to Like or Share to "raise awareness" of something but which become little other than trite and meaningless in a very short space of time.

I applaud your attempt to do something, but I don't think you would do much other than hack people off with the graphic.

This was informative post only, trying to reach some broader public. Anyone posts personal statements here, also links.
I'm afraid I have to repeat I dont seek comments telling my approach with the graphic wont work. I dont have a facebook account, sorry i cannot compare with what you say.

I try to do something, my own way, and i'm still working on more, so dont shoot the minute one comes up with a new idea (allbe it somewhat confronting. We've seen others confront in bonsai-land, so let me have a go)

I also dont need a mod to tell me my informative topic is a meaningless trite. Anyone who does not agree, can walk by this topic no? Negative comments wont stop me from acting. Better a small step then no step Fiona


Last edited by yves71277 on Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:17 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Yak'adori or Yam'adori

Post  Guest on Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:16 am

BigDave wrote:You forgot the other and maybe more important one...



I didn't forget anything that had to do with my idea. Deer were not in it Smile But be my guest if you want to start your own idea.

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Re: Yak'adori or Yam'adori

Post  Guest on Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:30 am

PeacefulAres wrote:
yves71277 wrote:
PeacefulAres wrote:

I think the problem is in your approach; it's too negative. Your example is just as likely to turn the good people away from the website as it is to raise awareness about this issue. Even if the message is positive, projecting it in an aggressive way can have the effect of making people feel attacked or excluded. When you're training a dog, you don't hit them, because it doesn't teach them anything except to be afraid of you. The same principle applies here.
Rather than putting a big banner on a website that says no to digging in protected areas, it would be a lot wiser for these sites to encourage collecting trees in an ecologically friend way. I.E. removing unwanted landscaping plants or trees that are set to be destroyed in the future, due to demolition/construction.
yes, but you can keep thinking and do nothing, or you can do something, anything. Are you used to building ideas into communication/PR that can reach the entire globe with a smart campaign, all in a few hours? I'm amateur, i do my best. If it takes a little negative along with more positive, well there you go for a start. I never said this is the final entry ;-). Give me a year or so, will ya? Smile. And about it being wiser to post it on website as a positive code of conduct, works even less. I did a bit of homework, many famous sites post such messages but only try to buy off the ethical issue. At the same time their sites are packed with articles and stuff that actually does the opposite. I'm not a webmaster of a site that reaches millions, and here we have an overdose of road signs, visitors on my site wont be offended all that much Very Happy


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Re: Yak'adori or Yam'adori

Post  fiona on Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:35 am

yves71277 wrote:
fiona wrote:I applaud your attempt to do something.

I also dont need a mod to tell me my informative topic is a meaningless trite. Anyone who does not agree, can walk by this topic no? Negative comments wont stop me from acting. Better a small step then no step Fiona
I do not speak as a Mod except where I explicitly say so and/or in a PM. As a member of this forum I have a right to make a comment. Funny however, how you in your aggressive defensiveness omit to mention my statement above in praise of your personal "small step" and choose to focus on a comparison I make and then assume it was some sort of insult.

You go ahead and do what you think is best - if it works we will all applaud you for it and some of us may even apologise for doubting you.



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Re: Yak'adori or Yam'adori

Post  Guest on Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:55 am

i've been busy, with a 'positive' logo.
check my blog, i'll make some room for it.
cheers


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Re: Yak'adori or Yam'adori

Post  Guest on Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:57 am

fiona wrote:
yves71277 wrote:
fiona wrote:I applaud your attempt to do something.

I also dont need a mod to tell me my informative topic is a meaningless trite. Anyone who does not agree, can walk by this topic no? Negative comments wont stop me from acting. Better a small step then no step Fiona
I do not speak as a Mod except where I explicitly say so and/or in a PM. As a member of this forum I have a right to make a comment. Funny however, how you in your aggressive defensiveness omit to mention my statement above in praise of your personal "small step" and choose to focus on a comparison I make and then assume it was some sort of insult.

You go ahead and do what you think is best - if it works we will all applaud you for it and some of us may even apologise for doubting you.



well, forgive my Fiona, but i'm more a fan of action, that does come with a little aggressive approach, or maybe it only seems that way if you see the message i'm trying to give...that is only about hating the haters, so i must be positive

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Re: Yak'adori or Yam'adori

Post  fiona on Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:11 pm

Your new logo is IMHO (and that is all it is) 100% better.

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Re: Yak'adori or Yam'adori

Post  PeacefulAres on Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:55 pm

yves71277 wrote:
PeacefulAres wrote:
yves71277 wrote:
PeacefulAres wrote:

I think the problem is in your approach; it's too negative. Your example is just as likely to turn the good people away from the website as it is to raise awareness about this issue. Even if the message is positive, projecting it in an aggressive way can have the effect of making people feel attacked or excluded. When you're training a dog, you don't hit them, because it doesn't teach them anything except to be afraid of you. The same principle applies here.
Rather than putting a big banner on a website that says no to digging in protected areas, it would be a lot wiser for these sites to encourage collecting trees in an ecologically friend way. I.E. removing unwanted landscaping plants or trees that are set to be destroyed in the future, due to demolition/construction.
yes, but you can keep thinking and do nothing, or you can do something, anything. Are you used to building ideas into communication/PR that can reach the entire globe with a smart campaign, all in a few hours? I'm amateur, i do my best. If it takes a little negative along with more positive, well there you go for a start. I never said this is the final entry ;-). Give me a year or so, will ya? Smile. And about it being wiser to post it on website as a positive code of conduct, works even less. I did a bit of homework, many famous sites post such messages but only try to buy off the ethical issue. At the same time their sites are packed with articles and stuff that actually does the opposite. I'm not a webmaster of a site that reaches millions, and here we have an overdose of road signs, visitors on my site wont be offended all that much Very Happy


I'm giving you feed back on your ideas. I was trying to help you.

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Re: Yak'adori or Yam'adori

Post  Guest on Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:42 am

PeacefulAres wrote:
yves71277 wrote:
PeacefulAres wrote:
yves71277 wrote:
PeacefulAres wrote:

I think the problem is in your approach; it's too negative. Your example is just as likely to turn the good people away from the website as it is to raise awareness about this issue. Even if the message is positive, projecting it in an aggressive way can have the effect of making people feel attacked or excluded. When you're training a dog, you don't hit them, because it doesn't teach them anything except to be afraid of you. The same principle applies here.
Rather than putting a big banner on a website that says no to digging in protected areas, it would be a lot wiser for these sites to encourage collecting trees in an ecologically friend way. I.E. removing unwanted landscaping plants or trees that are set to be destroyed in the future, due to demolition/construction.
yes, but you can keep thinking and do nothing, or you can do something, anything. Are you used to building ideas into communication/PR that can reach the entire globe with a smart campaign, all in a few hours? I'm amateur, i do my best. If it takes a little negative along with more positive, well there you go for a start. I never said this is the final entry ;-). Give me a year or so, will ya? Smile. And about it being wiser to post it on website as a positive code of conduct, works even less. I did a bit of homework, many famous sites post such messages but only try to buy off the ethical issue. At the same time their sites are packed with articles and stuff that actually does the opposite. I'm not a webmaster of a site that reaches millions, and here we have an overdose of road signs, visitors on my site wont be offended all that much Very Happy


I'm giving you feed back on your ideas. I was trying to help you.

thank you Smile

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Re: Yak'adori or Yam'adori

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:10 am

The problem with the collected tree is frequently, the second stage - got it for free and selling it to someone.

The something for nothing attitude, seen down here with those who dwell near the forests and seashores. Free food and can be sold.
Have fun.
Khaimraj

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Re: Yak'adori or Yam'adori

Post  Guest on Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:58 pm

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:The problem with the collected tree is frequently, the second stage - got it for free and selling it to someone.

The something for nothing attitude, seen down here with those who dwell near the forests and seashores. Free food and can be sold.
Have fun.
Khaimraj

LLB,
How about painting/art works? the paper/canvass and paint/pencil would cost less than $50 for a 2 ft X 4 ft masterpiece but the artist could sell it sometimes for more than a thousand $ after a few hours of works. I think the Yamadori hunter with good eyes spend more effort, time and money in looking , digging and transporting a future masterpiece.

just a thought,,,

your LLB,
jun Twisted Evil

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Re: Yak'adori or Yam'adori

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Tue Feb 26, 2013 3:43 pm

Actually, L.L.B.

the way it works is [ at least for me ] I am paid by the day for 10 hours of work, at minimum wage.

Additionally, the client pays in three parts - [1] The drawn idea / oil study [2] The beginning of the oil painting ] 3] The end.
At any point the client can speak.

I don't do exhibitions by the way. Just commissions and work seen on my walls or by requested image.

Does that help with my stand on collected trees - Smile
Hope your doing well and rolling in the $$$$
Khaimraj pirat

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Re: Yak'adori or Yam'adori

Post  Guest on Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:11 am

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Actually, L.L.B.

the way it works is [ at least for me ] I am paid by the day for 10 hours of work, at minimum wage.

Additionally, the client pays in three parts - [1] The drawn idea / oil study [2] The beginning of the oil painting ] 3] The end.
At any point the client can speak.

I don't do exhibitions by the way. Just commissions and work seen on my walls or by requested image.

Does that help with my stand on collected trees - Smile
Hope your doing well and rolling in the $$$$
Khaimraj pirat

This is not about you LLB. I just made an example by which we can relate easily to. I too managed to sell some Architectural drawings at high price with little effort at all,,,I am just making comparison to show that it is not only in yamadori that this sort of things happens.

PS.
Duh! bonsai don't bring me $, it eats my $..... It is just for passion and love for the art or craft,,,what eva!

Relax and stay healthy!

regards,
jun Smile


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Re: Yak'adori or Yam'adori

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:44 am

L.L.B,

this is the problem with e-mails, emotions are often imagined. I was simply trying to explain how I looked at, what we call down here --------- the something for nothing philosopy. I don't mind working for minimum wage, even though I work with a luxury item.

Just to be safe, I have no problem with someone sensibly and legally, digging up a tree, but more frequently, the digging is done towards sales. When one monkey does it on our side, you can bet your bottom dollar, a barrel of monkeys are sure to follow. This then creates very bad situations.

All of the above related in a calm, friendly voice.
Stay well, sorry for the confusion.
Khaimraj

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Re: Yak'adori or Yam'adori

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