Roots as trunk

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Roots as trunk

Post  Guest on Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:31 am

Hi IBC.

Will a tree planted upside down survive?
I mean the trunk is the one under the soil and the root system above the soil.
I asked because I found a small tree/bush (Ixora) with very nice root formation suitable to be the trunk and branches and a very boring straight trunk.

Please, although it may sound stupid and crazy idea No ...don't jump to conclusions yet and see what the result might be.


regards,
jun Smile



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Re: Roots as trunk

Post  Guest on Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:46 am

I forget to mention what triggers this idea. One of a very famous tree in Japan, a famous Juniper is said to be planted upside down. but one of a friend of mine who saw the tree personally said it is a very old tanuki project.


Oh well here is the bush.

Boring trunk right?




Nicer roots (for trunk) with good movement right?




regards,
jun Rolling Eyes



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Re: Roots as trunk

Post  0soyoung on Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:24 am

No, because the direction of inter-cellular auxin flow is programmed into the living cells. Since it was a little seedlet, it has had a defined up (foliage) end and a down (root) end that never changes. This is also why roots always emerge at the top of an air layer girdle and never at the bottom.

BTW, please note that auxin and photosynthates also move through the phloem which is not directional, per se, and is not the same thing as above. Above is talking about auxin being passed directly from living cell to living cell - this is where the action is (the rest is just plumbing).

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Darwin knows all

Post  Sabi on Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:27 am

Have a read of this Jun

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitropism

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Re: Roots as trunk

Post  Guest on Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:20 am

Well thank you Osoyoung and Sabi for the scientific explanation. I appreciate it. Anybody out there who might think otherwise? Science can be defied you know..hehe maybe we can do it here in IBC,, Regards, jun study

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Re: Roots as trunk

Post  Xavier de Lapeyre on Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:12 am

Hi Jun,

You question made me think back at one of Mr Kimura's trees, where he managed to get the roots to become the new apex, and the old apex to become the new roots. Well that's how it makes it sound like in his explanation, the translation might be a bit off...
Here's the link : http://youtu.be/Eq8eb2XK9Jw?t=2m21s
Its at 2m21 that he starts to talk about that tree.
I guess that's the famous juniper you talked about...

I don't know about gravitroprism, but from the wiki article it seems that there "are also several cultivated plants that display altered gravitropism compared to other species or to other varieties within their own species."

For a practical answer:
1. I'd give it a try, maybe plant it sideways to see how it responds [ does it give off roots and create new shoots ] and progressively turn it fully upside down.
2. From practical observation, I know that some plants species grow leaves from their roots when those are exposed to light/air for long periods.
I've had some good reactions from ligustrum and mix results with ficus.
I'm currently working on a ligustrum root to turn it into a shohin bonsai.
Right now you would not say that it was initially a lateral root that I salvaged from a repotting session.
I dunno if your tree can take such a treatment, but at this stage its up to you to give it a try.

Cheers
X

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Re: Roots as trunk

Post  Guest on Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:08 am

jun wrote:Well thank you Osoyoung and Sabi for the scientific explanation. I appreciate it. Anybody out there who might think otherwise? Science can be defied you know..hehe maybe we can do it here in IBC,, Regards, jun study

allthough i know you're a devil in disguise (you say so yourself Smile and i see a bit of develish purposes for your post, let me suggest planting it a full turn, in 4 steps:

make a year-by-year plan by which you do as you say, but only reach your goal in about 4 years time:
- year 1: plant it with a differtent angle, clockwise or counterclockwise, turn the angle a quarter (180° : 4)
- year 2: check the new roots, and if possible, repot it, by which the angle moves another quarter turn
- year 3: next quarter turn
- year 4: you reached your goal, its upside down. With every repot, remove a part of the (new) roots (survival rate) and aim for new roots
- year 5: entire new rootsystem, you can remove the last bit of old roots (from year 4)

haha

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Re: Roots as trunk

Post  jrodriguez on Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:14 am

Jun,

Gravitropism aside, let consider the nature of the species. Ixora sprouts readily from the roots, so it might be possible for those cuts to issue leaves. Also, you can force roots to sprout from the top portion.

In the end, if you don't try, you'll never know. Some plants are able to do this. Gravitropism is not absolute.

Regards,

Jose Luis

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Re: Roots as trunk

Post  Guest on Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:14 pm

X, thanks for being optimistic. Yes, some species do form branches and new trunks from roots. That is how some raft and clump trees were formed. Regards, jun Laughing

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Re: Roots as trunk

Post  Guest on Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:18 pm

Yves, thanks! Playing as the "devil's advocate doesn't mean you are the devil...hehehe its an expression when you are expressing or playing the negative role like a villian in a play....thanks for the idea and the pissitive thought on the subject. Regards, jun Twisted Evil

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Re: Roots as trunk

Post  Guest on Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:52 pm

jrodriguez wrote:Jun,

Gravitropism aside, let consider the nature of the species. Ixora sprouts readily from the roots, so it might be possible for those cuts to issue leaves. Also, you can force roots to sprout from the top portion.

In the end, if you don't try, you'll never know. Some plants are able to do this. Gravitropism is not absolute.

Regards,

Jose Luis
Thanks Jose Luis! That is why selected this particular species for this experiment. This is what I am aiming for here,,, I wanted to show that not everything we read in books or the internet is absolute. Without testing the theories we will really never now if it is true or not. Regards, jun Smile

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Re: Roots as trunk

Post  Xavier de Lapeyre on Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:34 pm

So start it off already Jun!! bounce
And I want a progression on this one too! lol!
You started it off, now you take responsibility geek
Twisted Evil

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Upside down.

Post  lennard on Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:08 pm

jun wrote:Hi IBC.

Will a tree planted upside down survive?
I mean the trunk is the one under the soil and the root system above the soil.
I asked because I found a small tree/bush (Ixora) with very nice root formation suitable to be the trunk and branches and a very boring straight trunk.

Please, although it may sound stupid and crazy idea No ...don't jump to conclusions yet and see what the result might be.


regards,
jun Smile




If the species you are using can be grown from cuttings from the trunk and root cuttings I can see no reason why it will not grow out leaves on the roots and roots on the trunk.

Treat is as a cutting and see what happens? I would keep the atmosphere around the exposed roots very moist in the beginning.

Can't wait for the result!

Lennard

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Re: Roots as trunk

Post  GaryWood on Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:33 pm

Jun, a hundred years ago :-) there was an article in one of the magazines, Bonsai Today or Kinbon where a japanese grower was making incredible little shohin elms where he used this technique. I've used it a few times with elms and Crepe Myrtle. After planting keep the exposed (new top) covered with some light moisture retentive material. I used sphagnum.
Wood
http://thingsofwood-gary.blogspot.com/

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Re: Roots as trunk

Post  Guest on Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:11 pm

ITS ALIVE!!!!

It took more time than the usual period of sprouting new shoots. It's batch mates harvested at the same period and planted at the same period is now full of leaves.


Two weeks ago....



Today....






One of the positive signs that the "branch" Which used to be roots is alive are these yellowish bumps...they are sap moving upward (downward) or in reverse action...



I guess not everything in the establish concepts/ideas are all true., Let's defy them Evil or Very Mad ..hehehe.


regards,
jun Smile






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Re: Roots as trunk

Post  mambo on Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:45 pm

Xavier de Lapeyre wrote:Hi Jun,

You question made me think back at one of Mr Kimura's trees, where he managed to get the roots to become the new apex, and the old apex to become the new roots. Well that's how it makes it sound like in his explanation, the translation might be a bit off...
Here's the link : http://youtu.be/Eq8eb2XK9Jw?t=2m21s
Its at 2m21 that he starts to talk about that tree.
I guess that's the famous juniper you talked about...

Cheers
X

Hi Jun,

Xavier is correct. This juniper is not a tanuki though. The whole process of turning it upside down is in Mr. Kimura's book. In this case it was a superb yamadori that was turned upside down out of necessity rather than for design purposes. It had no functioning roots as the collector, found it growing in rocks and rather than break them to collect it, he sawed it off like a huge cutting. It had grown some roots, but not enough to feed the foliage, and as a result the live vein had died almost to the top of the tree. The scarce foliage was surviving on the small amount of sap that was left at the top of the live vein. Kimura's solution was to induce roots from the live vein at the base of the branches at the top of the tree by drilling 5mm holes and filling them with rooting hormone, he then turned the whole tree upside down and placed the tree in a pot , leaving what was once the base as the upper part of the tree. The tree began producing roots within a few days and the rest is history...


Last edited by mambo on Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Roots as trunk

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:16 pm

Yes Mambo,

and was not the living part about 2.5 cm thick ?
Khaimraj

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roots inverse sens

Post  abcd on Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:19 pm

If you take a branch on the base off the trunk on elm, and put the top off the branch under the soil, the branche becomes root , with hazel, willow also.

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Re: Roots as trunk

Post  0soyoung on Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:29 pm

abcd wrote:If you take a branch on the base off the trunk on elm, and put the top off the branch under the soil, the branche becomes root , with hazel, willow also.

Thanks for teaching me a lesson, Jun.

Thanks for highlighting the key point, abcd - base of the trunk (or around the root collar).

I have a new appreciation and better understanding of 'ontological age'.

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Re: Roots as trunk

Post  milehigh_7 on Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:22 pm

Very fascinating! Thanks for doing the experiment and teaching us all!

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Re: Roots as trunk

Post  Guest on Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:58 am

abcd wrote:If you take a branch on the base off the trunk on elm, and put the top off the branch under the soil, the branche becomes root , with hazel, willow also.


Maybe the branch will have some roots, most (if not all) trees do that and that is the reason for raft design bonsai.. but the big question is, will the roots grow as branches? that is what I am trying to achieved here, roots as branch and not branch as roots.

regards,
jun Smile

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Re: Roots as trunk

Post  Guest on Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:06 am

mambo wrote:
Xavier de Lapeyre wrote:Hi Jun,

You question made me think back at one of Mr Kimura's trees, where he managed to get the roots to become the new apex, and the old apex to become the new roots. Well that's how it makes it sound like in his explanation, the translation might be a bit off...
Here's the link : http://youtu.be/Eq8eb2XK9Jw?t=2m21s
Its at 2m21 that he starts to talk about that tree.
I guess that's the famous juniper you talked about...

Cheers
X

Hi Jun,

Xavier is correct. This juniper is not a tanuki though. The whole process of turning it upside down is in Mr. Kimura's book. In this case it was a superb yamadori that was turned upside down out of necessity rather than for design purposes. It had no functioning roots as the collector, found it growing in rocks and rather than break them to collect it, he sawed it off like a huge cutting. It had grown some roots, but not enough to feed the foliage, and as a result the live vein had died almost to the top of the tree. The scarce foliage was surviving on the small amount of sap that was left at the top of the live vein. Kimura's solution was to induce roots from the live vein at the base of the branches at the top of the tree by drilling 5mm holes and filling them with rooting hormone, he then turned the whole tree upside down and placed the tree in a pot , leaving what was once the base as the upper part of the tree. The tree began producing roots within a few days and the rest is history...


The same answer here as I said to "ABC". ROOTS turned as TRUNK and BRANCH..and not just positioning the tree upside down. In my initial post, I said I like the root formation because they have good twist and turn movement and decided/tried to build a "top" or branches from the roots. Growing new roots from the other portion of the trunk is easy, you can do air layering for this.

Sent you a "bonsai secret" thru PM.


regards,
jun Smile

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Re: Roots as trunk

Post  Guest on Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:08 am

Thanks Milehigh and Osoyoung.
I'll post updates from time to time.


regards,
jun Smile

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Re: Roots as trunk

Post  mambo on Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:53 am

jun wrote:
abcd wrote:If you take a branch on the base off the trunk on elm, and put the top off the branch under the soil, the branche becomes root , with hazel, willow also.


Maybe the branch will have some roots, most (if not all) trees do that and that is the reason for raft design bonsai.. but the big question is, will the roots grow as branches? that is what I am trying to achieved here, roots as branch and not branch as roots.

regards,
jun Smile

Hi Jun,

The answer to that is, at least on some of the species, yes.

I have a cork oak that when I collected it, I had to leave a number of large roots exposed that would not fit in the container I had available. These roots have now not only grown branches, (which I keep trimming away) but are now also growing cork bark on them. I have seen this on other species too.

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Re: Roots as trunk

Post  Mal B on Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:32 pm

This may be of interest jun, an acer campestre 3 year's after collection, in the first photo your looking at where the tap root is in the centre of the tree, in the last all that is left of the trunk. Every bit of foliage is now growing from what used to be root.









The tree had been blown over in a storm and the trunk had rotted away, the tree is now growing a completely new branch structure from what used to be it's root's.


Regards Mal

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Re: Roots as trunk

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