100kg Carpinus - winter work

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100kg Carpinus - winter work

Post  Sebastijan Sandev on Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:33 pm

The tree is a real pain...so hard to work...so hard to move it around...but, it has to be done.

There is a whole story of this tree...well, in form of links which follow the tree from collection day to present here:

http://sandevbonsai.blogspot.com/2013/02/100-kg-carpinus-winter-styling.html

http://sandevbonsai.blogspot.com/2013/02/video-100kg-carpinus-winter-session.html

Walter Pall analyzing the tree here: http://sandevbonsai.blogspot.com/2012/04/video-7-international-bonsai-academy.html



Thanks

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Re: 100kg Carpinus - winter work

Post  NorCalBonsaiGuy on Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:02 am

Looks like it is on it's way to a great future! It really is amazing how quickly you are developing this material. Thanks for posting, I have been enjoying watching the progress!

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Re: 100kg Carpinus - winter work

Post  mambo on Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:26 pm

Hi Sebastijan,

That tree has lots of character.

I have a question. On most of the collected Carpinus I see, the artists leave the original branches and then grow the finer branching off those. It always looks "wrong" to me as the original branches look like stumps that taper into very fine branches, even though I assume over time they may blend in. Is there a reason these stump type branches are left on the tree rather than cutting them off and starting from the beginning?

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Re: 100kg Carpinus - winter work

Post  Guest on Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:34 pm

mambo wrote:Hi Sebastijan,

That tree has lots of character.

I have a question. On most of the collected Carpinus I see, the artists leave the original branches and then grow the finer branching off those. It always looks "wrong" to me as the original branches look like stumps that taper into very fine branches, even though I assume over time they may blend in. Is there a reason these stump type branches are left on the tree rather than cutting them off and starting from the beginning?

I think for the simple reason that this is the way to do it, with this kind of raw material. It would be a total waste and shame not to keep these stumps on a tree this size, and with this character. Its allready too big, too heavy, the thing would look so wrong with only smaller branches, too japanese too. In my opinion that is

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Re: 100kg Carpinus - winter work

Post  mambo on Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:27 pm

Hi Sebastijan,

Thanks for the clarification. Though I have to disagree with the term "too Japanese". Perhaps, I have yet to see a Japanese tree in an exhibition (in Japan) that does not have mature branches in balance with the tree. The Japanese trees you may be referring to are imports such as the Burger Acers that have initial branch systems on them requiring years of taper work and growing so that they balance with the tree.

I imagine the same could be achieved with these Carpinus and in the long term, the branching would be of better quality, but it would just take too long, or we generally don't have the patience here in the West wanting quick results..... Look at Robert Stevens, "My New Premna" thread, 6 years to achieve the branching on the tree and several more to go by the looks of it! How many of us have that sort of patience?

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Re: 100kg Carpinus - winter work

Post  Sebastijan Sandev on Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:02 pm

mambo wrote:Hi Sebastijan,

That tree has lots of character.

I have a question. On most of the collected Carpinus I see, the artists leave the original branches and then grow the finer branching off those. It always looks "wrong" to me as the original branches look like stumps that taper into very fine branches, even though I assume over time they may blend in. Is there a reason these stump type branches are left on the tree rather than cutting them off and starting from the beginning?
mambo,
then, the searching process in nature won't be important at all. when I go out collecting, I am trying to find an interesting trunk and lower branches. if I would cut all of this branches, then I would have only a stump....and not only that...with huge scars all over the tree. That means that I could collect almost any stump I see...would be much easier then it is.
next problem is...just imagine small branches formed from fresh shoots on a dinosaur body like you see on this carp. it would take forever to make them strong enough to fit the trunk. This way, ok...we have a stumplike branches and fresh new growth out of them...but, it is way better then same tiny branches out of that monster trunk. This way, diameter decrase is gradually nicer.
those new shoots that you notice out of big and strong branches will...in three to five years be ALMOST like if they were originaly there. Some amount of time is all that we need.
and final thought...try to look these "branches" not like branches, but like subtrunks. I like this wild and monster-like appearence. It reminds me on old trees in fairy tales. I don't care much about a very tidy look Smile
I don't know if I was of any help or not Smile

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Re: 100kg Carpinus - winter work

Post  Berner on Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:12 pm

Great stuff Sebastian. I really admire your work with deciduous trees. You keep it simple and elegant. I'm also amazed with the size of your trees - they are indeed impressive. I look forward to follow which pot you select for this massive tree.

Br Jens


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Re: 100kg Carpinus - winter work

Post  Sebastijan Sandev on Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:24 pm

Berner wrote:I look forward to follow which pot you select for this massive tree.

Br Jens


Thanks Berner.
I am afraid of that already...a nightmare to me.
Fortunately, that won't be in the next two years.

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Re: 100kg Carpinus - winter work

Post  Todd Ellis on Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:55 am

Is there a pot strong enough to contain a 100kg tree? Perhaps a slab, or one of Erik Križovenský's cement creations? Lovely tree ... how's your back? Very Happy

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Re: 100kg Carpinus - winter work

Post  mambo on Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:59 am

[quote
mambo,
then, the searching process in nature won't be important at all. when I go out collecting, I am trying to find an interesting trunk and lower branches. if I would cut all of this branches, then I would have only a stump [/quote]

I absolutely understand where you are coming from. It is as we have both said a question of time and patience but the end result in many years time might perhaps be better. You have also confirmed what I stated in my original post, that in a few years the secondary branching would come into balance. Don't get me wrong, I love this type of Yamadori with all that character much more than say the Japanese style tree such as Luis Vallejos Fagus that won the Noelanders this year in the decicuous category as to me. They are technical tours de force but just don't have any soul - at least to me....and I love fairy tale trees.

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Re: 100kg Carpinus - winter work

Post  Sebastijan Sandev on Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:33 pm

Todd Ellis wrote:Is there a pot strong enough to contain a 100kg tree? Perhaps a slab, or one of Erik Križovenský's cement creations? Lovely tree ... how's your back? Very Happy
Todd,
my back is not good for years. And after repotting or collelcting season I need few weeks to recover...that's life and I'm not young any more Very Happy
Regarding pot, yes, I'm thinking about it. I will probably order a special pot, custom made...but I have enough time...at least two years the wooden box will be ok

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Re: 100kg Carpinus - winter work

Post  Sebastijan Sandev on Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:54 pm

mambo wrote:[quote
mambo,
then, the searching process in nature won't be important at all. when I go out collecting, I am trying to find an interesting trunk and lower branches. if I would cut all of this branches, then I would have only a stump

I absolutely understand where you are coming from. It is as we have both said a question of time and patience but the end result in many years time might perhaps be better. You have also confirmed what I stated in my original post, that in a few years the secondary branching would come into balance. Don't get me wrong, I love this type of Yamadori with all that character much more than say the Japanese style tree such as Luis Vallejos Fagus that won the Noelanders this year in the decicuous category as to me. They are technical tours de force but just don't have any soul - at least to me....and I love fairy tale trees.[/quote]



One more thing mambo...If you would see Carpinus orientalis in natural habitat..., it will look like a big, gnarled, contorted and twisted bush. Maybe just a tree-like bush...but more a bush than a tree. So, you can look those big branches on bonsai carps more like a sub.trunks of a big and old bush...monster bush.
I can't agree with you more regarding aesthetics of deciduous trees. I feel the same. But, Fagus is again a different morfology than Carp or. Fagus is a typical treelike tree, and carp or is a typical bushlike tree.
It would be just wrong to force the natural growth of this tree to something else.
Regarding Luis fagus on Noelanders...I will not comment rightful winner who's tree was choosen by a renown artists, one reason is, I really want Mr Vallejo to enjoy his success...different thing is ...do I like this tree that was choosen. But, I understand your thinking regarding that very well. Wink
That discussion would lead us to a difficult and complex philosophy of tree desing and natural stereotypes and aberrations and also bonsai design paralels and traditional and individual styles...but that's too complex and out of place in this theme.. scratch
Fairy tale trees....oohhh, hmmmm, that's something nice. Those things are so alive, don't you think so? Very Happy ThumbsUp


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Re: 100kg Carpinus - winter work

Post  Guest on Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:51 pm


mambo .... Very Happy you answered to my reply first, not Sebastijans ;-)

But anyway I dont really know what you are talking about when you question the tree posted here.
It's allright to have an opinion, but if things are explained several times, why not simply accept.
I am fully with Sebastijan, and i see this tree and these stumps as far better than would what you suggest, thats all.
Let nature HELP the end result, sometimes the worst thing to do is try to cut off all what looks like nature, and then build up an entirely artificial 'tree'.
That is what is happening more and more now, put the nature aspect into bonsaitrees more.
I repeat myself, and Sebastijan, it would be a shame not to use what this raw material in this size, has given us.

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Re: 100kg Carpinus - winter work

Post  mambo on Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:53 pm

Hi Sebastijan,

I have made no criticism of Luis' tree. I know Luis well and he has a great collection and has been one of the pioneers of European bonsai as I said, it is a technical tour de force but leaves me a little cold compared to the character of the deciduous yamadori being collected by artists such as yourself. I was not at the Noelander's so can't comment on the rightful winners, especially not from photographs, but I was not enamoured by either of the winning trees, just a matter of my own taste and preferences.

"If you would see Carpinus orientalis in natural habitat..., it will look like a big, gnarled, contorted and twisted bush. Maybe just a tree-like bush...but more a bush than a tree. So, you can look those big branches on bonsai carps more like a sub.trunks of a big and old bush...monster bush." This is exactly why I raised the question, to learn. This sentence brings things more into perspective. Not all of us have had the privelidge to see these in their natural habitat.

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Re: 100kg Carpinus - winter work

Post  mambo on Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:01 pm

yves71277 wrote:
mambo .... Very Happy you answered to my reply first, not Sebastijans ;-)

But anyway I dont really know what you are talking about when you question the tree posted here.
It's allright to have an opinion, but if things are explained several times, why not simply accept.
I am fully with Sebastijan, and i see this tree and these stumps as far better than would what you suggest, thats all.
Let nature HELP the end result, sometimes the worst thing to do is try to cut off all what looks like nature, and then build up an entirely artificial 'tree'.
That is what is happening more and more now, put the nature aspect into bonsaitrees more.
I repeat myself, and Sebastijan, it would be a shame not to use what this raw material in this size, has given us.

Yves, I am sorry that you seem to have taken my comments the wrong way. My questions were to learn the reasoning behind the design, they were in no way meant to be a criticism and Sebastijan's last post has answered those. I am sorry but I will not join the "beautiful tree" school. If I see something that raises questions in my mind I will ask the artist to explain why and this is what I have done, for me it is another way to learn. In this case I have started from the viewpoint that I like the material anyway, so I don't see the reasoning behind your comment that simply brings antagonism to a thread where it didn't exist. Sebastijan has been patient enough to respond to my questions and explain his reasoning and that is much appreciated.

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Re: 100kg Carpinus - winter work

Post  Sebastijan Sandev on Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:49 pm

Guys..friends..everything is ok. Don't get upset. I believe we understand each other very well. I do not know Mr Valejo but, I know very well, and I experienced it on my skin, that tastes are different and, who am I to judge, even comment. I'm not of much commenting, maybe to close people or friends but, words..especially written words are easily missunderstood or missinterpretated. So, I am just cautious. I strongly believe that, there's no right and wrong in bonsai design (not growing technics), because almost everything is possible in nature. While bonsai is concearned, if it makes me, you or somebody happy..it is ok.
Main thing is that somebody loves that particular tree and enjoys it.
Guys, you are both right.
I was just commenting on my view which is maybe totaly wrong for somebody else.
My trees are result of what I feel and like. So if anyone doubts what I like, think ...just look at my trees.
Exactly that.

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Re: 100kg Carpinus - winter work

Post  Sebastijan Sandev on Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:53 pm

Mambo,
I think you have asked a really good question and
Yves,
You have provided a good answer, before I managed to write one

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Re: 100kg Carpinus - winter work

Post  Guest on Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:54 pm

Todd Ellis wrote:Is there a pot strong enough to contain a 100kg tree? Perhaps a slab, or one of Erik Križovenský's cement creations? Lovely tree ... how's your back? Very Happy

good point, i wonder about that too...dear God what effort you need to just repot this, or only move the whole lot 1 inch Very Happy. In one of your vids Sebastijan, I saw you use some kind of pulley, amazing Very Happy

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Re: 100kg Carpinus - winter work

Post  Sebastijan Sandev on Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:34 pm

yves71277 wrote:
Todd Ellis wrote:Is there a pot strong enough to contain a 100kg tree? Perhaps a slab, or one of Erik Križovenský's cement creations? Lovely tree ... how's your back? Very Happy

good point, i wonder about that too...dear God what effort you need to just repot this, or only move the whole lot 1 inch Very Happy. In one of your vids Sebastijan, I saw you use some kind of pulley, amazing Very Happy


Yves,

It's kinda strange but, I usualy end up with some big, monster tree. And after coming home, every time I'm saying to myself that I will never do it again. My back hurts chronicly, especialy in repotting or collecting season.
Pulley or winch or "12" as we call this device is a great help. Most of big trees that I collect I would never be able to collect without "12". Or, it would be at least three times longer...in hours. That is probably the best tool that I use all the time. I just cut surface set of roots....nebari roots, and the rest is just ripped out or broken. If you don't brake those roots beneath the trunk, winch usualy tilts the tree to one side making you enough space to cut those roots that you wouldn't be able to reach in normal tree position. Care must be taken not to brake the tree, trunk or important parts of the nebarial roots...because "12" produces 2000kg (2 tons) of pulling power.
Here is the video of using it for repotting a large and heavy tree. It was quite a relief and a big big help



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Re: 100kg Carpinus - winter work

Post  Hans van Meer. on Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:19 pm

Sebastijan Sandev wrote:
My trees are result of what I feel and like. So if anyone doubts what I like, think ...just look at my trees.
Exactly that.

Well sad! I could not have answered or explained that better! I was asked during last Burrs: what kind of trees/Bonsai do you like? I answered with a smile: my own trees! When his mouth dropped open a little, I explained: Would it not be silly, if I would style my own trees in a different way, than the style that I like/love to see in Bonsai?! That is like writing Jazz music, when you love to compose Opera!Smile
Now that dos not mean in any way that my trees are better than others, fare from it! But it just means: that my trees show what I believe to be beautiful or interesting. Just like in any other art form!
The masive (looking) trees that Sebastijan shares with us are his interpretation of a big deciduous tree in the wild! I know that if he wanted to, he could just as easily choose a other approach in styling, but he would not think of it! Why would he? This is what he prefers and aims for in his creative work, this is his art! His trees are painted with his own brush strokes and style and that sets him aside from the main stream and that is quit a accomplishment! The only thing that some off his trees are missing: is the passing of time?! But that is the price that you have to pay when you choose the long (and right!) way to build your branch structure! But his patience approach will repay it self in the near future, because I think that in 4 or 5 years these trees will look absolutely stunning and very believable!
And I do understand the important factor of ageing on newly grown branches or trunks, the Larch that I showed at Noelanders could have done with some more years off bark building on it's new trunk! Patience is a virtue that slips fast when one gets older! Smile

So I do understand the questions about why and how he build his branch structure. And questions and critics are good! And so are his answers and sharing of knowledge! But believe me that some off Sebastijan's big trunk styling work will be better explained and appreciated in just a few more year's off growing time! So I hope that he will keep on sharing this amazing big trunks creations with us!
Great post and discussion!

Cheers,
Hans van Meer.

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Re: 100kg Carpinus - winter work

Post  Sebastijan Sandev on Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:00 pm

Hans van Meer. wrote:
Sebastijan Sandev wrote:
My trees are result of what I feel and like. So if anyone doubts what I like, think ...just look at my trees.
Exactly that.

Well sad! I could not have answered or explained that better! I was asked during last Burrs: what kind of trees/Bonsai do you like? I answered with a smile: my own trees! When his mouth dropped open a little, I explained: Would it not be silly, if I would style my own trees in a different way, than the style that I like/love to see in Bonsai?! That is like writing Jazz music, when you love to compose Opera!Smile
Now that dos not mean in any way that my trees are better than others, fare from it! But it just means: that my trees show what I believe to be beautiful or interesting. Just like in any other art form!
The masive (looking) trees that Sebastijan shares with us are his interpretation of a big deciduous tree in the wild! I know that if he wanted to, he could just as easily choose a other approach in styling, but he would not think of it! Why would he? This is what he prefers and aims for in his creative work, this is his art! His trees are painted with his own brush strokes and style and that sets him aside from the main stream and that is quit a accomplishment! The only thing that some off his trees are missing: is the passing of time?! But that is the price that you have to pay when you choose the long (and right!) way to build your branch structure! But his patience approach will repay it self in the near future, because I think that in 4 or 5 years these trees will look absolutely stunning and very believable!
And I do understand the important factor of ageing on newly grown branches or trunks, the Larch that I showed at Noelanders could have done with some more years off bark building on it's new trunk! Patience is a virtue that slips fast when one gets older! Smile

So I do understand the questions about why and how he build his branch structure. And questions and critics are good! And so are his answers and sharing of knowledge! But believe me that some off Sebastijan's big trunk styling work will be better explained and appreciated in just a few more year's off growing time! So I hope that he will keep on sharing this amazing big trunks creations with us!
Great post and discussion!

Cheers,
Hans van Meer.

Thanks Hans....well, when I started to write "thanks Hans" I stopped, and for a second a thought crossed my mind...thanks for what?
Because, I was sincerely moved with your post and everything that is said couldn't be said better. So, next moment I realized that...probably, thanks simply for understanding. For appreciate and respect what I do and the way I express what I feel and how I see things. Thanks for not calling my trees "logs" ...I often read that on the internet Very Happy
But, enough talk about me...that's a globaly deficient thing. So, let's make it wider.
I was so moved because it is rare that people think so open mindly about things and things that others do.
I am doing bonsai for 18 years, majority of that time alone and without publicity. Some years ago when internet really started to make bonsai to become a wide community of people from everywhere that can talk and discuss issues regarding trees, nature, designing natural scenes and so on...all the things of a high spiritual value and intimacy, and a precious emotional substance, I was so surprised how this comunity of people often hardly understands each other and sometimes has very narrow way of seeing and accepting things. Very strange if we assume that those people are all within a beautiful art, and not only that but, philosophycal and contemplative art in it's best.
I thought that everyone will love and understand trees and plants and bonsai and meditation in nature with high level of collectiveness. That understanding and love for nature is everywhere and with everyone the same.
Mostly, bonsai community are spiritual and nature loving people. But besides that, obviously, it is not easy to accept each others way of thinking without feeling that you are endangered by the fact that someone is thinking differently than you. That is probably the way humans race thinks... period.
Ok. To make things shorter...I have overdone it again, sorry Embarassed
Nevertheless, in your answer I felt tolerance, understanding, acceptance. In your text I have recognized a true and open minded artist and nature lover.
That is not a common thing, even in the world of highly spiritual meditative arts such as bonsai is.
For that reason I feel enriched after reading your text.
So thank you.....well...for that

S

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Re: 100kg Carpinus - winter work

Post  Guest on Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:26 pm

Sebastijan,

you addressed Hans's reply with 'surgical' precision ;-)
get it? ;-) Very Happy

ps: and those 18 years bonsai-ing by yourself has made a good base, and prepared your mind, for WP Wink
so you can now seek more truth and absorb more knowledge... about the 'essence of a log' Smile
No pain no gain, no log no... Smile

grtz



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Re: 100kg Carpinus - winter work

Post  Sebastijan Sandev on Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:43 pm

yves71277 wrote:Sebastijan,
the 'essence of a log' Smile
No pain no gain, no log no... Smile


Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

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Re: 100kg Carpinus - winter work

Post  marie1uk on Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:52 pm

I love your trees Seb Very Happy Very Happy I also thought you were mid 30's in age so was surprised to see you have done bonsai so long, how old are you may I ask? Did you learn by yourself all this time? You have definitely got your own set of bonsai techniques you never find in books .. a winch to repot and long screws to anchor your trees. Bravo on your outlook too - art and bonsai come in many forms .. from the japanese and their high levels of precision & refinement to walter pall's naturalistic style to Seb's massive deciduous marvels that look as old as time. All are awe inspiring in different ways... appreciate their beauty.

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Re: 100kg Carpinus - winter work

Post  Sebastijan Sandev on Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:58 am

marie1uk wrote:I love your trees Seb Very Happy Very Happy I also thought you were mid 30's in age so was surprised to see you have done bonsai so long, how old are you may I ask? Did you learn by yourself all this time? You have definitely got your own set of bonsai techniques you never find in books .. a winch to repot and long screws to anchor your trees. Bravo on your outlook too - art and bonsai come in many forms .. from the japanese and their high levels of precision & refinement to walter pall's naturalistic style to Seb's massive deciduous marvels that look as old as time. All are awe inspiring in different ways... appreciate their beauty.

Hi marie1uk,

thanks,
you may...I'm 38, started when I was 20. yes, technics have to improve if you want to progress with time..and all this diversity is what makes life interesting and enjoyable...just think how art will be boring if everybody would see it the same way Smile

regarding technics...I have a new video...which is not very important really...just collecting and having fun with my brother and Chajko...but, it is interesting to see a foxtail saw doing a good job. This device is very helpful because...saves energy of my hands and reduces time for collecting..and it's a good addition to my collection weapon set


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Re: 100kg Carpinus - winter work

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