are modern pots going in the right direction? my thoughts and hopefully yours

Why the artistic pot or traditional pot? Simple. It is about perspective...

What does the artist want to best represent his vision? What IS his vision. Does he or she just want to represent another cookie cutter formula or tell a story? Do they want to make an artistic statement, or merely just try a new planting angle? It just depends.

A lot of us (potters) are probably very surprised from time to time to see how sometimes pots sell that we didn't think would sell, and of course, visa versa. Go figure.

I make pots in both styles and in varying degrees of each, but there is one thing that I find the most satisfying: When a very well respected bonsai artist comes to my booth and tells me his vision for one of his trees in one of my pots. As a craftsman/artist, this is very humbling. They have the vision and want to transform the pot to a new level of understanding. I listen with open eyes, ears and mind, and know that all of this potting stuff is well worth it.I feel like, finally, somebody gets me. This to me is what bonsai art is all about.

I am not going to rant and rave about my own artistic merits here, that's not my point. My point is, when a 'artistic' pot is made, that's great. When a bonsai artist comes along, and puts their own spin on my creation and uses it in a show, that's even better. I cannot alone change the face of American bonsai today, but a rising bonsai master can!

Now the judging, that's another story...

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts about the art of pots for bonsai. I am now starting to purchase special pots for my special trees, and this takes time and resources. I must say that there is a need for mediocre pots for those of us who are trying to sell potential bonsai; they look better and often sell better when sold with a pot versus a nursery container. Many people, when they start in this venture, do not want to invest "too much" money because they fear that they might kill their trees. They are attracted to an aesthetic, or notion of what a bonsai "looks like"; this is where the mass produced traditional browns and certain glazed pots have a place.

I am color blind and know this affects how I select pots for particular trees. I am often attracted to the bright colors because I can see these colors and don't have to ask others "what color is it?" I love textures and unique shapes because they are different - not the mainstream; probably why I usually like Chinese styles of trees more versus the Japanese trees. I am trying to find my place among other enthusiasts and ask there advice on color choices. I also like to use my artistic license to create unique plantings.

Anyway, I just want to go on record to say that my favorite pot vendors at the PBA Spring show at the National Arboretum are Dale's pots and a vendor who sells find Yixing pots.

Todd

Ryan B wrote:Not just for potters in the west, Andy and BigDave. Most of the potters in Japan who weren't legacies got their start as bonsai hobbyists

Gastro , thats cool to know.

I know several accomplished ceramic artists who wanted to enter the bonsai market only to fail miserably. Why...
the details of a bonsai pot are so subtle most dont see them

they had details wrong,--- color, feet,and drainage mostly.

Only a bonsai lover can made a great bonsai pot, I think

Rob Addonizio wrote:

I am not going to rant and rave about my own artistic merits here,

okay I will then, your stuff is awesome, and inspiring.

I know it is is hard work, and not for glory or big money, but for the love

Good Job.

[quote
Anyway, I just want to go on record to say that my favorite pot vendors at the PBA Spring show at the National Arboretum are Dale's pots and a vendor who sells find Yixing pots.

Todd [/quote]

Thanks Todd

The fellow selling the high quality Chinese pots is Yenchin, from Taiwan, of "OSIGA"

Not only do potters in the west have the precursor hobbyist thing going on, BigDave, but also the lack of income and impossibility of a living wage thing! Up until the 60s and early 70s, the only bonsai potter in Japan making a living wage was Ono Gishin. Then Heian Kouso came on the scene, and publically popularized some of Japan's great contemporary potters(most of whom had either passed away or were extremely old), this interest in Japanese potters popularized by Kouso, guys like Tofukuji, Kouzan, and Yusen, led to many other potters becoming involved in making bonsai pottery, increased values for domestically made pots, and allowed the last generation of potters to earn a living wage.
Sadly, this is no longer the case. Many, if not most, of the old kilns are closing their doors. I believe that one of the factors in this is the easy availability of pots from those kilns online, used, and with better patina. Production levels for the kilns of Tokoname, for example, we're do high during the boom years that one can easily find pots from just about all of them (Koyo and Gyozan excluded)for 1/3 or less the cost of retail.
Ryan
http://japanesebonsaipots.net/

Dale Cochoy wrote:
I have to admit that when I see what folks pay for some of these pots like collectable Tofukuji pots that I immediately think of my teacher describing some pottery as "Easter Eggs" and I'd never think of paying some prices I've seen for a signature pots of ANY KIND, especially if they are like many I see are simply just not good pots with warping, cracks, etc. If you only knew how often I saw pots being discussed as really great and thinking to myself, "if I made that, no one would even pick it up to look at it"!
D.

I feel this really needs to be responded to, a uniquely American misunderstanding of art and eastern bonsai pottery. I'm sorry to single Mr Cokhoy out for this, because many forum posters have often espoused the same opinion in the time I've watched the dialogue, with an eye to the pots.
Dale, if you've seen warped, flawed, pebble-infused-and-exploded-from the surface, inarticulately glazed, and "seconds" Tofukujis fetch really high prices, and were surprised...thats the nature of ART. For the sake of argument, we'll say that these pots you speak of seeing bought for stupid prices are are just crappy. So why has the Eastern art world embraced Tofukuji as the paragon of Japanese Bonsai Pottery art? Is it his backstory? His lack of his own kiln? His friendship with and hand in guiding the pottery generation that followed him? That contemporary potters in the mid 70s in Japan were able to earn a living wage because his work inspired enthusiasts to deviate from the "crossings"?....
No, Dale.
While all of these are true, and there are many other fun anecdotes that add to the story(my personal favorite is that around 85% of all Tofukuji pots were fired in either the local public kiln[where one must fight for space{hence, the small pots} or the kilns of Kyoyaki friends, like Ino Shukuho and Harumatsu.). They are still just anecdotes.
Dale, Tofukuji pots are valuable, rarefied, and collectible because they are, to turn a Trev, Ball Achingly Awesome. Tofukuji, spent years studying the techniques and styles of his predecessors, and his contemporaries(and copied those new techniques liberally when they were great....nobody remembers Naokata but me and Franky C and the Japanese. Lol).
And the potters inspired by Tofukuji? Pretty much a who's who of everybody's collection who reads here(or, at worst, a wants want) they spent far more time going back to the old and middle crossing Chinese pots than Tofukuji did....
My point is simple. Tofukuji took the time to learn, study, and individualize his take on antique Chinese pots, and espousers of his style have gone even deeper into those roots....it's rare to pick up a top quality Tokaname pot from Koyo that isn't a Tofukuji derivative, or an unglazed Ikkou that isn't a straight copy of an old or middle crossing Chinese pot...nearly a decade of copies now, just trying to get clay quality right.

With all this history before you Dale, and the Hundreds of Tofukuji Pots I've seen(few warped in an unintentional manner, cracks rarely Kama Kizu but the result of age, and the suitability to bonsai universally unrivaled)....How Many Tofjkuji Pots have you seen? And have you taken the time the study the foundation of modern Bonsai pottery art?
A shitty Piccasso is still a Piccasso...it's a shame that all you've seen are seconds.
And this doesn't even touch on how His pots match to trees. I'm up to around 900 images from Gafu Ten and Kokufu Ten of Trees in Tofukuji pots....there's a reason the shitty ones are worth 50 of every pot on your shelf...because of the TREES.

Ryan

Kokufu Ten of Trees in Tofukuji pots

could post a few of these please, so I can see what you are talking about.

Sure Billy, I'll have to get to a computer, I can't post from my phone and that's where 90%
Of all my pot photos and records are.
I want to emphasize and reiterate that my previous post was NOT an attack on Dale, specificaly, as I've heard the same idea over and over again, always in the same context..."Tofukuji pots are overpriced, and theyre not all that good", or "Antique Chinese pots are great, but for the money I can get 10 pots that don't look like they have coffee stains on them". I think, especially in the case of famous Japanese potters like Tofukuji, we, in the west, haven't seen these containers used with trees(or when we did, leafing through a Gafu Ten or Kokufu Ten album, we didn't realize it). It makes all the difference in the world to see a great combo with a great tree, and is essential to understanding WHY these pots are stupid pricey.
Ryan
http://japanesebonsaipots.net/

"....there's a reason the shitty ones are worth 50 of every pot on your shelf...because of the TREES."


Ryan,
Thank you for the lesson.
I now appreciate warped, cracked, bubbled, chipped pots more than I used to, no matter who made them, Antique, modern or USA/Euro made. I've never reallly looked at any pottery....

"I want to emphasize and reiterate that my previous post was NOT an attack on Dale,"

Gee, on the internet we USUALLY get the "with all due respect" before we are singled out and told we don't know what we are talking about and our opinions are B.S.!

Dale ( A Puppy-Mill Tire-Tread making potter) Cochoy

Stone Monkey wrote:.....
My attitude and outlook has, and will always be Bon=pot Sai= planting, they are both equal and both 50% of the
equation that is Bonsai. You can't have one without the other.

I must disagree with this.

True, a plant stuck into a clump of soil WITHOUT a pot is not bonsai. It's a simple matter of definition. But that's not the issue.

"Bonsai" is a tree in a pot ..... not a pot holding a tree. The pot, in my way of thinking, ought to be "invisable", a sublime object that (besides holding the plant from falling over) brings the focus towards the tree in a way that hightens the appreciation for the tree itself and/or its design. If a pot has served its purpose TO THE MAXIMUM, then one ought to be impressed by the tree without having any recollection of the pot at all. That does NOT decrease the artisic value of the pot insomuch as it glorifies the plant, but once it draws attention away from the plant it has failed in its purpose.

I know that writing on forums can be misinterpreted and misread but sometimes people can be a little on the rude side IMHO.

As I previously said Marcus good debate but peoples opinions are getting a little, oops careful what you say Andy you may get in to trouble. I am outta here.

Andy

Scion wrote:

Stone Monkey wrote:.....
My attitude and outlook has, and will always be Bon=pot Sai= planting, they are both equal and both 50% of the
equation that is Bonsai. You can't have one without the other.

I must disagree with this.

True, a plant stuck into a clump of soil WITHOUT a pot is not bonsai. It's a simple matter of definition. But that's not the issue.

"Bonsai" is a tree in a pot ..... not a pot holding a tree. The pot, in my way of thinking, ought to be "invisable", a sublime object that (besides holding the plant from falling over) brings the focus towards the tree in a way that hightens the appreciation for the tree itself and/or its design. If a pot has served its purpose TO THE MAXIMUM, then one ought to be impressed by the tree without having any recollection of the pot at all. That does NOT decrease the artisic value of the pot insomuch as it glorifies the plant, but once it draws attention away from the plant it has failed in its purpose.

Ps. With all due repect .....

Dale,
I'm not sure what other people on the Internet mean by "with all due respect", I only know what I mean, and what I mean is I respect you and your work, I like some quite a bit. AGAIN, As I said, I'm not responding to Dale specifically, as I've heard this same statement, or it's type, many times, from many people, and I'm responding to them all. Sure there are seconds, that are unintentionally warped, bubbled, and cracked through years of use, but in many cases the bubbles and warpage is what makes them unique, gives them an air of wabi sabi and natural, imperfect, elegance, like bubbles in artisan blown glass, or unrestored ancient sculpture.
When I asked how many Tofos you'd seen, it wasnt a slight, it was an honest question. Many people who've made this same blanket statement in the past to me when I've had this conversation had only seen a hand and footfull of his pots, and yet make sweeping generalizations. I've seen hundreds, and the vast majority are not bubbled, cracked and warped, except in cases like nanban and rustic styles that are intentionally so.

In essence, I guess its a matter of taste, and we all know there is no truth in matters of taste, only opinions and consensus. So it's not something we can agree on, no matter. I did come off as rude, and that wasnt my intention. All due apologies for my brusqueness and loutish ravings, I guess it's a pet peeve I didn't know I had.

And as to a pot being invisible, Scion, then why have pots at all, rock plantings are still bonsai and there is no pot? The rock is the container in the case. Should this "pot" be "invisable" as well, or does it bring a great deal to the table? I think a perfect union of container and tree increases the beauty of the tree, highlights the beauty in the pot, and together become much greater than the sum of their parts.
Ryan
http://japanesebonsaipots.net/

this is both enlightening and educational,
thanks to everyone for debating - the one thing that shines though is the passion behind the subject, and it is not surprising that two camps have developed as there are certainly two sides to the pot coin.

i personally feel the traditional potters knew the bigger picture and have perfected making great bonsai pots that will always be desired and used to show off great trees. The longevity of understanding the market place is proven, and there are some potters (some still living! ) whos work commands high prices. Potters who chose this route can easily let off creative steam when needed with the beautiful artistic sculpture pieces - and in all honesty it doesn't make the slightest difference if these pots are ever planted and make it to a show.

the other side of my coin is artists who have become driven by making the wacky pots - great artistic credit where it is due as i love looking at and appreciating them, but do i want to buy them?.......not often, ...of course these pots are snapped up when offered for sale as they are new, unique and qwirky, but are the buyers understanding of what it takes to combine a pot and tree successfully ? .You could relate these sales to how many actually figure in the winning displays at the top shows across the world and chances are very few, if any, make the top slots.

The final proof of understanding would come if the pot maker could visualise the perfect tree combination every time a pot comes out of the kiln, although this may be a divine process that only a few achieve (or want to ). I have felt for a while (and this discussion suggests too) that some potters are making pots regardless of whether there is a perfect tree to match it - and while there is nothing wrong with this approach it may not offer the longevity and reputation of those that understand the perfect tree/pot relationship before shaping the clay.

the two sides of the coin will always be opposed too so no need to fall out over it

cheers Marcus

Here here! I think there is room in the marketplace for both varieties(and lots of both sides of the coin to be spent). I both collect pots extensively and use them, and have about equal amounts of usable and avant garde pots. Another real bit of mastery that potters with the divine spark of art seem to have is the ability to see the future....that's right. Potters like Takao Koyo and some Bushuan make pots that are eye wateringly bright, but once theyve aged a little and gained some patina, they're spectacular. We seem to miss a lot of these bright, single and multi color containers that age well in the west.
Ryan

I agree with Marcus in his original post and that is why I responded. I also agree with his appreciation "comprimise" (here above). That comprimise is in recognising art (for its own sake), function, and the endevour to combine the two.

What ought to be evident however is this .......

Ryan B wrote: ...... I ..... have about equal amounts of usable and avant garde pots. .....

.... the distinction is one that may always be debated as it is at the heart of "bon-sai", that marriage of 2 different concepts ..... not that I am in any way passing judgement on same sex marriages mind

<Pardon my paraphrasing your reply, Ryan>

marcus watts wrote:
the other side of my coin is artists who have become driven by making the wacky pots - great artistic credit where it is due as i love looking at and appreciating them, but do i want to buy them?.......not often, ...of course these pots are snapped up when offered for sale as they are new, unique and qwirky, but are the buyers understanding of what it takes to combine a pot and tree successfully ? .You could relate these sales to how many actually figure in the winning displays at the top shows across the world and chances are very few, if any, make the top slots.

The final proof of understanding would come if the pot maker could visualise the perfect tree combination every time a pot comes out of the kiln, although this may be a divine process that only a few achieve (or want to ). I have felt for a while (and this discussion suggests too) that some potters are making pots regardless of whether there is a perfect tree to match it - and while there is nothing wrong with this approach it may not offer the longevity and reputation of those that understand the perfect tree/pot relationship before shaping the clay.

Ah! Marcus, I CONTINUALLY strive to become as enlightened ( and apparantly as talented) as you and Ryan. You both seem to have a handle on the way the bonsai world should look at pottery, contemporary or traditional, and just WHO is worthy of being considered a talented artist. ( BTW, have you looked any at the backgrounds of some of us wacky potters?)
I guess, just speaking for myself mind you, that I'll need to stay content with being a wacky and qwirky pot making bonsaiman who has never made a traditional pot? . I realize I may NEVER achieve the understanding of the divine process needed to visualize the perfect tree/pot combination , but golly, please allow me, and others who don't impress you, to keep trying. I guess I'll have to learn to live with the thought that neither of you may ever want to own one of my pots, or a few others, for your multitude of trees, but I'll try to get over the loss of the two sales.
For myself, I'll pass on making the 'Easter Eggs' as well as I can and continue to use warped, twisted and cracked pots that come out of the kiln as "Dale pots" .
I'll continue to come up with new ideas and bring them to fruition as they pop into my head.
THAT is what makes ME an ARTIST!

Ain't life wonderful!

Dale,
Actually, I own a couple of your pots, got em off EBay for a song. I actually like the tire tread crackle style...when Imaoka did them in brilliant gold and silver glazes in the 70s. I believe the Japanese call this very old technique "apricot skin"...nothing "new" or "original" about it. THAT'S what makes me a pottery HISTORIAN!
Those are all very good points you made. Keep striving CONTINUALLY and you'll get there. Sometimes it takes awhile...33 years and around the time it takes for me to get back to the subject of this thread. I believe I just wrote that I appreciated new forms and Avant Garde containers, and quantified that my TASTES in pottery are just that, tastes. Our tastes are different, BFD. I guess I'm not the only one who has a pet peeve, and rants loutishly. And unlike my first rant, this one is just for you.
Ryan
http://japanesebonsaipots.net/

It was so close that I could honestly taste it. But then Peace with Honour got cold feet and backed out - at the last possible moment. I'm speaking about North and South Korea, of course.

the passion runs red..........i like it

my simple view on this..............bonsai potters are really able to understand the required balance and can produce desirable work that is useable at every level and in demand by everyone - not just the collectors or people looking to boost a tree not yet ready.............others may be exeptional artists, expressionists and individualists (all good for the sake or art) - but it doesn't automatically make them good bonsai potters does it?

it is basically black and white - a bonsai potter should be able to show a pot they have made and know / state the perfect planting to complete it - the pot will evolve at their hands to have a specific and perfect tree waiting.....a potter who is unsure when it comes to the perfect combination is potentially making pots for the sake of it. i see amazing talent appearing every day, i also see artists missing the point of what is a long term useable pot, hence begining the debate to see if others felt similar to me

Dale - why are you so defensive and sarcastic - you are an excelent artist, no-one is disputing that and never was, but i think some artists are wanting the pot to be the main attraction, and that is not the way this hobby is, and it never will be. (if bonsai potters had their own national shows and awards it may be different) You are very vocal about you pots, too right they are your babies - do you see many perfectly matched with trees - serious question as we dont see a lot of the USA scene in the uk atm

Great debate - they are pointless if everyone just agrees and doesnt get passionate. And i applaud those who stayed with it we all have a broader feeeling for the topic now thanks

Marcus

OK you tempted me back

I completely condone the fact that the pot should never command the style and overall image and the pot never dominates the overall impression and image that is portrayed. However the pot is still 50% of the composition even if it is in a supporting role to the tree. I have never supported the issue that the pot is the commanding presence but I have supported the fact that it is on par with the tree that is planted in it.

With all due respect, and every comment that should show that I prostrate myself to those that may be offended by the slightest misplacement of a comma etc, Billy, a pot can be appreciated in its own right without a tree in it but can a tree be appreciated in its own right without a pot?

Bonsai is a planting in a pot and they are both inextricably linked with each other, one without the other will never be bonsai. I have stood at my stand for 5 years at the Noelanders Trophy advising customers who are interested in one of my pots what tree I envisaged to be in the pot that I made. I bet a pound a pinch of shit, an English saying, that the customer who buys the pot does not plant the tree I had envisioned in it when I made it. That is the customers prerogative as they will have their own ideas as to what the pot suits and what it does not, not that it bothers me.

All my work is made for something in "my mind" that will fit the pot, the customer may have something different in mind for the pot they see on my stand. The meeting of two minds is the hardest part but when it does happen it is magical.

Marcus if your going to Noelanders come over to see me and Mr Tickle and we will have a beer and talk pots mate oh and trees too

All the best and Merry Christmas

Andy

Good thread this one, and I know i'm going to pee some people off and i fi do sorry theres no mallace intended.

Personally, probally less than 10% of bonsai pots apeal to my personal taste, thats not to say that potters don't create for the majority of buyers (after all they would be silly not to), However i don't actually buy bonsai pots myself, anything shallow with the size I want and feet will do... these are mainly from charity shops and consist of old planters or ovenwear so far (yes they are awful but most bonsai pots are to me also), infact I'd love to be able to make my own but time and equipment isn't just isn't there for me.

Having probally more than dabbled in venture of being an artist myself (I used to paint for several years and had modest ltd sucess in my own way) and being acussed in the past of copying someones style etc it buggs me how in pottery to be diferent mean potters produce work that looks like a junior high school first time with a lump of clay afair with the title of handmade or studio.
I fully understand the back to basics approach and yes some bonsai styles suit this also how satifiying it can be in a creative form.
.... however in pottery I have never seen advances with bonsai pots or some master potters making what-ever, maybe it had reached it peak years ago and could explain why old named pots are so sort after?

Or maybe it just me but the fact people pay silly money for old pots seems to add weight to this argument, it could be a case of people chasing named pots for status in the same way as people bought and still buy artists works like Piero Manzoni canned works or rich people buy picasso's simply for the boast factor.

What i'm probally trying to say (and badly) ... is when was the last time you saw someone producing pots that made your heart skip a beat or made you have to sit down and ponder it for hours , come back day after day to look at it?
Maybe its the fireing stage where potters add the glaze but never really know what they are going to get ........it's all chance to a certain point, hence there can never be real artistic control to the point of painting or sculpting etc, incidently I've never liked anything glazed since school when you would see semi fired pots etc that looked wonderfull then the rest of the class would colour them with awful results.

Like i said , sorry if this pee's some people off and maybe the problem is only in my taste or head.

Stone Monkey wrote:
..... a pot can be appreciated in its own right without a tree in it but can a tree be appreciated in its own right without a pot?

Andy

This question stuns me.

FIRST. It is the tree "without a pot" that is the inspiration for bonsai in the very first place.

SECOND. If many bonsai gardeners felt that the pot is (or ought to be) upwards towards 50% of the bonsai EXPERIENCE then why so much effort in planting Kôrabuki, accompanying rocks, and netsuki. Isn't it all striving towards the illusion that there is no pot? And how to explain the attraction of planting upon a slab of Shale - isn't that a tree "without a pot"?

I've been thinking about what I said earlier about the pot being "invisible" (PLEASE note the quotation points, ie not to be taken literally) and I'm sticking with it.