Offline with Mr. Robert Stenven in my Garden (lnvinh - VietNam)

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Re: Offline with Mr. Robert Stenven in my Garden (lnvinh - VietNam)

Post  PROTONWIRA on Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:15 am

[quote="Robert Steven"]They also have one local species called Sam (I can't find the botanical name) with very nice trunk character and the leaves are perfect for bonsai...small, compact and bright green. Any can help to identify the botanical name ?

Hi Robert
It is Antidesma acidum, called "Sam nui "

There are some others:
Antidesma bunius
Antidesma fordii
Antidesma fruticosum
Antidesma ghaesembilla
Antidesma gracile
Antidesma hainanense
Antidesma japonicum
Antidesma maclurei
Antidesma microphyllum
Antidesma montanum
Antidesma paxii
Antidesma phanrangense
Antidesma poilanei
Antidesma rec
Antidesma thwaitesianum
Antidesma thwaitesianum
Antidesma tonkinense

You are by the best sam nui in Viet nam sofar.

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Re: Offline with Mr. Robert Stenven in my Garden (lnvinh - VietNam)

Post  Robert Steven on Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:34 pm

Thanks Qui. Yes, it was really nice indeed.

All above were in Ho Chi Minh, before showing the trees in Hanoi, just share with you some fun time in HCM...

I didn't know that Vietnamese didn't drink less than the Chinese and German. Beer for breakfast, and strong spirit for lunch and dinner. This was an expensive "Gold Grains Spirit" with 24K pure gold grain; I was told that when we drink, the gold grains will "slice" our throut to let the alcohol being "absorb" quicker... Anyhow, it did burned...



Later..I was shocked by an unexpected guest creeping in... a cobra....



Better not to show you the process...however, it ended up on the table in 5 different dishes from the different parts...



As the Chinese says..gall is good for gall ("Gall" also means "Bravery" for Chinese)...



...followed by the "Vampire" toasting....



Yuupp... the mixer was enough to stimulate your bravery to "bite and suck"....






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Re: Offline with Mr. Robert Stenven in my Garden (lnvinh - VietNam)

Post  lnvinh on Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:16 pm

Robert Steven wrote:Thanks Qui. Yes, it was really nice indeed.

All above were in Ho Chi Minh, before showing the trees in Hanoi, just share with you some fun time in HCM...

I didn't know that Vietnamese didn't drink less than the Chinese and German. Beer for breakfast, and strong spirit for lunch and dinner. This was an expensive "Gold Grains Spirit" with 24K pure gold grain; I was told that when we drink, the gold grains will "slice" our throut to let the alcohol being "absorb" quicker... Anyhow, it did burned...



Later..I was shocked by an unexpected guest creeping in... a cobra....



Better not to show you the process...however, it ended up on the table in 5 different dishes from the different parts...



As the Chinese says..gall is good for gall ("Gall" also means "Bravery" for Chinese)...



...followed by the "Vampire" toasting....



Yuupp... the mixer was enough to stimulate your bravery to "bite and suck"....







What reaction do you have in your stomach when you use these items?How do you feel?

lnvinh
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Re: Offline with Mr. Robert Stenven in my Garden (lnvinh - VietNam)

Post  Guest on Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:24 pm

I heard cobra blood is good for ...you know what...did it work? Hehe. Evil or Very Mad nice huge penjings they got there Robert. Just a question, I have seen and observed that (most) trees and penjings in Vietnam were more Rigid or traditionally styled following "clouds" and triangular patterns for tropical trees, I wonder how they received your naturalistic ideas? We're they open to new approach? Regards,jun Smile Smile

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Re: Offline with Mr. Robert Stenven in my Garden (lnvinh - VietNam)

Post  Robert Steven on Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:26 pm

lnvinh wrote:

What reaction do you have in your stomach when you use these items?How do you feel?



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Re: Offline with Mr. Robert Stenven in my Garden (lnvinh - VietNam)

Post  Robert Steven on Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:49 pm

jun wrote:I heard cobra blood is good for ...you know what...did it work? Hehe. Evil or Very Mad nice huge penjings they got there Robert. Just a question, I have seen and observed that (most) trees and penjings in Vietnam were more Rigid or traditionally styled following "clouds" and triangular patterns for tropical trees, I wonder how they received your naturalistic ideas? We're they open to new approach? Regards,jun Smile Smile

.....

BTW, yes, specifically in HCM; that's the first thing I addressed and I did one restyling to show the difference, and I think they accepted the point (Did you agree Qui ?)
Their Shuihan Penjing are nice, mostly set with one single tree, but they are good in composition and the rock arrangement.

But it's different in Hanoi. In Hanoi, they like Ficus very much and always heavenly big ! They like to pot them in the ancient Chinese pot model with water around..like growing on rocky island. The character of their ficus is totally different from Taiwan or China, I like the wild and natural character. In my opinion, if they refine little bit on the crown shape and the foliage pads, their ficus bonsai can be the best in the world and can be the icon of Vietnam bonsai. It was a 180 degrees changes since my last visit 7 years ago !

LOL, you won't believe the price of ficus bonsai in Hanoi area, some cost nearly one million dollars ! And one amazed me was that there were always bonsai in every house that has garden or terrace... Something I've never found in any other countries.....

Here are some to share...



















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Re: Offline with Mr. Robert Stenven in my Garden (lnvinh - VietNam)

Post  Guest on Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:11 pm

Very good ficus Robert. these last few images I think are the original Vietnamese bonsai Character.
Thanks for sharing!

...I hope your message to them will be absorbed and adopted to their amazing penjings...Like you said "somebody should start it".

BTW. Be ready again, maybe February....

regards,
jun Smile

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Re: Offline with Mr. Robert Stenven in my Garden (lnvinh - VietNam)

Post  Robert Steven on Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:29 pm

Yes, I think they do. In Hanoi, I was welcome to the same place I was 7 years ago with more enthusism, at a local agriculture university organized by the local government. Still few same old guys from 7 years ago, but much more open minded and lots of new generation.

Here to show the different welcoming atmosphere, more like a party congress in the function hall with typical stage background.. Laughing
But very warm and nice with small display.







I refused to do the demo on the stage with the audience at such distance, then the demo turned into a very informal close discussion...
A different experice indeed.


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Re: Offline with Mr. Robert Stenven in my Garden (lnvinh - VietNam)

Post  xuan le on Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:36 pm

LOL, you won't believe the price of ficus bonsai in Hanoi area, some cost nearly one million dollars ! And one amazed me was that there were always bonsai in every house that has garden or terrace... Something I've never found in any other countries.....
and drinking "Gold Grain Spirit"

This sounds like Vietnamese are very rich poeple now.

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Re: Offline with Mr. Robert Stenven in my Garden (lnvinh - VietNam)

Post  Robert Steven on Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:56 pm

xuan le wrote:LOL, you won't believe the price of ficus bonsai in Hanoi area, some cost nearly one million dollars ! And one amazed me was that there were always bonsai in every house that has garden or terrace... Something I've never found in any other countries.....
and drinking "Gold Grain Spirit"

This sounds like Vietnamese are very rich poeple now.

Yes, THEY ARE !
There are lots of bonsai collectors who spend millions of dollars for this hobby.
After the program, I visited the famous Halong Bay for relaxing..and unexpectedly, I was pickep up by the local bonsai community, they put me in the 5 stars resort bungalow, visited the local collectors and arranged an exclusive cruisse to Halong Bay...



















I awe for this and I promised them to be back....


Robert Steven
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Re: Offline with Mr. Robert Stenven in my Garden (lnvinh - VietNam)

Post  lnvinh on Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:14 pm

Robert Steven wrote:
lnvinh wrote:

What reaction do you have in your stomach when you use these items?How do you feel?



About 1 year players bonsai Vietnam began as a natural style for the new plant, and the old ones did before also edit a lot, parallel to it, also existmany trees with clouds style as you say, but natural style of tropical plants growing attention and more and more and more people to follow directions.Hopefully next time you come to Vietnam you will see major changes in the style of bonsai.

lnvinh
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Re: Offline with Mr. Robert Stenven in my Garden (lnvinh - VietNam)

Post  crust on Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:51 pm

This freaking amazing. Beautiful huge trees. Wonderful there is a active culture loving bonsai.

crust
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Re: Offline with Mr. Robert Stenven in my Garden (lnvinh - VietNam)

Post  PROTONWIRA on Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:10 am

Robert Steven wrote:
jun wrote:I heard cobra blood is good for ...you know what...did it work? Hehe. Evil or Very Mad nice huge penjings they got there Robert. Just a question, I have seen and observed that (most) trees and penjings in Vietnam were more Rigid or traditionally styled following "clouds" and triangular patterns for tropical trees, I wonder how they received your naturalistic ideas? We're they open to new approach? Regards,jun Smile Smile

.....

BTW, yes, specifically in HCM; that's the first thing I addressed and I did one restyling to show the difference, and I think they accepted the point (Did you agree Qui ?)
Their Shuihan Penjing are nice, mostly set with one single tree, but they are good in composition and the rock arrangement.

But it's different in Hanoi. In Hanoi, they like Ficus very much and always heavenly big ! They like to pot them in the ancient Chinese pot model with water around..like growing on rocky island. The character of their ficus is totally different from Taiwan or China, I like the wild and natural character. In my opinion, if they refine little bit on the crown shape and the foliage pads, their ficus bonsai can be the best in the world and can be the icon of Vietnam bonsai. It was a 180 degrees changes since my last visit 7 years ago !

LOL, you won't believe the price of ficus bonsai in Hanoi area, some cost nearly one million dollars ! And one amazed me was that there were always bonsai in every house that has garden or terrace... Something I've never found in any other countries.....

Here are some to share...

Hi Robert
Most of us accepted your point and you know there are also many bonsaists having started their style by that way. They are still in progress ...
Btw, about the icon of Vietnam bonsai ? We should do a national survey then Smile For the time being Ficus ( called sanh) can be the icon of North Vietnam only Idea Do you know why? Because that is my point Idea
Brgds/Quí

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Re: Offline with Mr. Robert Stenven in my Garden (lnvinh - VietNam)

Post  Robert Steven on Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:39 am

PROTONWIRA wrote:Hi Robert
Most of us accepted your point and you know there are also many bonsaists having started their style by that way. They are still in progress ...
Btw, about the icon of Vietnam bonsai ? We should do a national survey then Smile For the time being Ficus ( called sanh) can be the icon of North Vietnam only Idea Do you know why? Because that is my point Idea
Brgds/Quí

Qui, InVinh,

As I mentioned in my demo, you started in the right way and progressing in very short time, you do not make the common mistake on the ramification structure of deciduos trees as many countries do, so just small refine improvement, then will be perfect. You have all the potential means !

Only icon of North Vietnam ? Come on buddy...this is not in the past war time... Evil or Very Mad

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Re: Offline with Mr. Robert Stenven in my Garden (lnvinh - VietNam)

Post  mientrung on Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:03 am

Hi Robert,

I saw the video clips about your visit to Lnv garden. Do you mind if I ask some technical questions here? there is some points that I feel either they are not very clear or generalized and I would like you to elaborate more for better understanding.
I am a little bit disappointed at some of the translation which can make the attendants and other viewers misunderstand about your view.

Thanks

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Re: Offline with Mr. Robert Stenven in my Garden (lnvinh - VietNam)

Post  newzealandteatree on Mon Dec 10, 2012 3:59 am

Thanks for sharing.
Fantastic to see such huge enthusiasm for bonsai. The size, quality and style of some of the bonsai are just amazing.
Robert, good to see u work and play hard.

Cheers,

CJ

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Re: Offline with Mr. Robert Stenven in my Garden (lnvinh - VietNam)

Post  Robert Steven on Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:54 am

mientrung wrote:Hi Robert,

I saw the video clips about your visit to Lnv garden. Do you mind if I ask some technical questions here? there is some points that I feel either they are not very clear or generalized and I would like you to elaborate more for better understanding.
I am a little bit disappointed at some of the translation which can make the attendants and other viewers misunderstand about your view.

Thanks

My pleasure Mien.. so we can share the info here. Tks.

Thanks CJ, hope to meet you again sometimes...

Robert Steven
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Re: Offline with Mr. Robert Stenven in my Garden (lnvinh - VietNam)

Post  mientrung on Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:17 am

Thanks Robert,

Regarding to your talk about the tropical bonsai top has no apex. It is some kind of flat top.

For my understanding, that is depending on level of apical dominance of the type of trees. Most of tropical trees, the apical dominance is not very strong therefore, the overall shape of the canopy is kind of round, sometimes wide umbrella shape. So I totally agree with you that most of conifers will have a triangle top. With tropical trees, most will exhibit the round canopy and kind of flat top. But with tropical trees in the distinct rainy and dry season area, there is some level of apical dominance behavior, the top will not totally flat fop but will be wide umbrella shape. Do you agree?

Add to the confusion (this is where I am disappointed), during the translation, when you said the conifer tree normally has triangle top, the translator kept translating to Vietnamese that triangle is umbrella shape. I don't agree with that at all. Therefore, it makes the attendants think that tropical trees MUST have kind of flat top. The confusion will be more when they look at the pictures of your trees here.

or here


I have more questions but it will help if we can discuss one by one. I think.
Thanks very much for you time!

mientrung
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Re: Offline with Mr. Robert Stenven in my Garden (lnvinh - VietNam)

Post  mientrung on Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:29 am

Robert Steven wrote:
xuan le wrote:LOL, you won't believe the price of ficus bonsai in Hanoi area, some cost nearly one million dollars ! And one amazed me was that there were always bonsai in every house that has garden or terrace... Something I've never found in any other countries.....
and drinking "Gold Grain Spirit"

This sounds like Vietnamese are very rich poeple now.

Yes, THEY ARE !
There are lots of bonsai collectors who spend millions of dollars for this hobby.

I don't think it all all. A lot is poor. If you spend time go hunting for yamadori, that will be a totally different experience than the what you have had.

And about the bonsai in every house, there are several explanations for that. I think you means by ficus bonsai? If so, about 1 or 2 years ago, ficus became so hot in Vietnam that everyone even a normal farmer knew about the value of ficus, everywhere, every family try to get one with expectation that it will keep increase value overtime. So as the result of that, now you can see it everywhere.

Also what Qui said about ficus is kind of the North bonsai icon not the South is true. It got nothing to do with the past war time, people in the South just simply don't like it. Because the leaf is too big, there is several other species that has smaller leaf which is better for bonsai. As you can see in Lnv garden, there is more variety of species not a lot of ficus.

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Re: Offline with Mr. Robert Stenven in my Garden (lnvinh - VietNam)

Post  Sakaki on Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:34 am

Amazing atmosphere, amazing trees & amazing people!
Thanks for sharing them with us Robert!

Taner

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Re: Offline with Mr. Robert Stenven in my Garden (lnvinh - VietNam)

Post  Robert Steven on Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:01 pm

mientrung wrote:
Robert Steven wrote:
xuan le wrote:LOL, you won't believe the price of ficus bonsai in Hanoi area, some cost nearly one million dollars ! And one amazed me was that there were always bonsai in every house that has garden or terrace... Something I've never found in any other countries.....
and drinking "Gold Grain Spirit"

This sounds like Vietnamese are very rich poeple now.

Yes, THEY ARE !
There are lots of bonsai collectors who spend millions of dollars for this hobby.

I don't think it all all. A lot is poor. If you spend time go hunting for yamadori, that will be a totally different experience than the what you have had.

And about the bonsai in every house, there are several explanations for that. I think you means by ficus bonsai? If so, about 1 or 2 years ago, ficus became so hot in Vietnam that everyone even a normal farmer knew about the value of ficus, everywhere, every family try to get one with expectation that it will keep increase value overtime. So as the result of that, now you can see it everywhere.

Also what Qui said about ficus is kind of the North bonsai icon not the South is true. It got nothing to do with the past war time, people in the South just simply don't like it. Because the leaf is too big, there is several other species that has smaller leaf which is better for bonsai. As you can see in Lnv garden, there is more variety of species not a lot of ficus.

Mien, every country has poor people, even in Japan, Europe and America, but now there are lots of rich and super rich people in Vietnam is a fact..and the living standard in Vietnam is lifting up tremendously since the last 10 or 20 years in all aspects. Despite of certain common "negative" impact of fast growing "new" society, there are a big potential for bonsai community in Vietnam and your potential is growing on the right track..as you will soon have an integrated bonsai community, which is very important.

There are more and more rich and super rich people get involved in bonsai hobby..this is the first good thing, a good demand. Some of these collectors may not know how to make and maintain their bonsai, then this will be a potential for the bonsai artists as profession..and as already happened as you stated, this condition also created so many bonsai "farmers" and yamadori hunters to supply the demand. Overall, this situation will impact to the economical aspect, as well as to the bonsai art itself...and this is what I mean as an important integrated community..bring benefits to all. And this condition does not happen in every country...somewhere everyone want to be an artists, but the art doesn't go nowhere...

What I mean by "icon" is not something you need to claim or declare officially, but it's simply a distinctive identity admired by international bonsai community, such as the Wrightia from Malaysia, Pemphis from Indonesia..etc. No one care if the Wrightia bonsai in Malaysia is from Sarawak or from Penang..and in fact not every region in Indonesia can grow Pemphis well..but certain outstanding character will create the national identity, and I think this is a good thing..no matter it comes from which region..as a nation !

In the south, you have Antidesma "Sam nui" and your small leaves Wrightia is just outstanding. You can also develop your Sam and small leaves Wrightia bonsai to go along with the ficus from the north. When I say "Icon", it can be more than one species..just like Indonesia has Pemphis and Casuarina, Malaysia has wonderful Baeckea beside Wrightia..and who knows, one day..your small leaves Wrightia is better then the one from Malaysia.


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Re: Offline with Mr. Robert Stenven in my Garden (lnvinh - VietNam)

Post  khat_lp on Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:15 pm

Thanks Mr Robert verry much. It's sad not to see you in Vietnam. Hope to again welcome you!

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Re: Offline with Mr. Robert Stenven in my Garden (lnvinh - VietNam)

Post  Robert Steven on Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:38 pm

mientrung wrote:Thanks Robert,

Regarding to your talk about the tropical bonsai top has no apex. It is some kind of flat top.

For my understanding, that is depending on level of apical dominance of the type of trees. Most of tropical trees, the apical dominance is not very strong therefore, the overall shape of the canopy is kind of round, sometimes wide umbrella shape. So I totally agree with you that most of conifers will have a triangle top. With tropical trees, most will exhibit the round canopy and kind of flat top. But with tropical trees in the distinct rainy and dry season area, there is some level of apical dominance behavior, the top will not totally flat fop but will be wide umbrella shape. Do you agree?

Add to the confusion (this is where I am disappointed), during the translation, when you said the conifer tree normally has triangle top, the translator kept translating to Vietnamese that triangle is umbrella shape. I don't agree with that at all. Therefore, it makes the attendants think that tropical trees MUST have kind of flat top. The confusion will be more when they look at the pictures of your trees here.

I have more questions but it will help if we can discuss one by one. I think.
Thanks very much for you time!

Mie, thank for the question.

When I addressed the triangle shape issue, I was more refering to the mindset where still lots of people thought that a good bonsai design should always be triangle; then I explained the different character between conifers and deciduous tree about the apical dominant structure.
I didn't mention a single word about umbrella shape, but I did also explained about the logical and easthetic aspect between the neat round foliage shape with irregular form in expressing different mimics and moods of the bonsai.

I emphasized that one should avoid was to style their deciduous bonsai like conifers with the "single" apex line, in template manner to all designs !..which normally form a triangel shape of canopy. Conifers are basically apical dominant and the shape of the trees are mostly monopodial, whereas deciduous trees are more sympodial with wider spread canopy...and I was also talking about the plant morphology that caused different tree shapes in nature..which we can apply into good bonsai design principles.

Generally, only young deciduous trees are apical shape with apical dominant trunk and branch lines, and the crown will grow spreading wider when getting older; whereas conifers are basically apical shape. As long as the apical meristerm is not disturbed, there will be no new side lines grow to compete...

Hope this clarify your question..and please pass on to our friends in Vietnam. Tks !

Robert Steven
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Re: Offline with Mr. Robert Stenven in my Garden (lnvinh - VietNam)

Post  mientrung on Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:11 pm

Robert Steven wrote:
Mie, thank for the question.

When I addressed the triangle shape issue, I was more refering to the mindset where still lots of people thought that a good bonsai design should always be triangle; then I explained the different character between conifers and deciduous tree about the apical dominant structure.
I didn't mention a single word about umbrella shape, but I did also explained about the logical and easthetic aspect between the neat round foliage shape with irregular form in expressing different mimics and moods of the bonsai.

I emphasized that one should avoid was to style their deciduous bonsai like conifers with the "single" apex line, in template manner to all designs !..which normally form a triangel shape of canopy. Conifers are basically apical dominant and the shape of the trees are mostly monopodial, whereas deciduous trees are more sympodial with wider spread canopy...and I was also talking about the plant morphology that caused different tree shapes in nature..which we can apply into good bonsai design principles.

Generally, only young deciduous trees are apical shape with apical dominant trunk and branch lines, and the crown will grow spreading wider when getting older; whereas conifers are basically apical shape. As long as the apical meristerm is not disturbed, there will be no new side lines grow to compete...

Hope this clarify your question..and please pass on to our friends in Vietnam. Tks !

Thanks for answering my question, it is clearer for me. Let me summary your ideas so we can get better understanding on this.

A good bonsai design is not necessary to have triangle canopy. Meaning overall canopy. The top can be irregular triangle shape, short of round shape... depending on the tree environment, structures... as long as there is an explanation based on environment interaction with tree. If so, I totally agree with it.

The reason I try to beat up this issue is on another Vietnamese forum, an artist showed a cascade tree with a round top and asked if the tree looks tropical tree and a number of viewers just look the top of the tree and said that it is not tropical. That is the way I understand from reading the forum message, their ideas could be different from what I thought. So for me, a better understanding is more reference points for us moving forward to achieve the holy grails for bonsai design (just kidding) Smile.

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Re: Offline with Mr. Robert Stenven in my Garden (lnvinh - VietNam)

Post  Guest on Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:24 pm


Hi Robert.
I think this is becoming a very informative discussion. Please continue the explanation further.

Like the proper branch placement. The textbook design dictates a left side, right side, back...repeat the process until you reach the top/apex. this method most of the time creates the triangle shape for trees, right? Now people will ask, what is the proper way to do tropical/ decidous branch layout to make a more naturalistic tree.

I'll ask something again later...hehehe. Wink

regards,
jun Smile

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