Birch #2 virtual - go or no go?

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Birch #2 virtual - go or no go?

Post  Guest on Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:14 am

i roughly know what i would prefer, but want extra opinions on:
- continue with the threadgrafted branch in the future, or cut it again (useless effort?)
- about the 'bushes' of branches: any other ideas?

This birch has its problems, i inherited this 25yo birch and all major branches had to go (totally useless, old branches with only green on the ends). It had been mistreated for maybe a decade.
The main problem i'm left with now it that huge buld as a trunk base. Birches in nature, especially when trunkchopped, can produce this (like linden) when new shoots from the base (tendency towards root shooting and shoots at base) are left for too long. But i dont want to throw it away, it has 'something' but i know exactly what.

So 2 pics of the tree as is, and virtual that emphasises this tendency for shoots at the base/roots and to cover the bulb up.






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virtual 2

Post  Guest on Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:39 am

virtual 2, without the threadgraft..
maybe more balanced, more elegant, more negative space



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Re: Birch #2 virtual - go or no go?

Post  JimLewis on Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:03 pm

You can "solve" the bulge problem by planting the tree a bit deeper in its next pot.

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Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

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Re: Birch #2 virtual - go or no go?

Post  Guest on Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:07 pm

JimLewis wrote:You can "solve" the bulge problem by planting the tree a bit deeper in its next pot.

oh yes, sorry Jim, that is true, but before it was deeper, but that was really even more awkward looking, like a pole that came straight out of the ground, and with a little 'bulb' it looked so unreal. Now the bulb is bigger, but more irregular shaped at the base, imho the bulb is least ugly now, weird way of putting it but its like that haha.

thanks

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Re: Birch #2 virtual - go or no go?

Post  Sakaki on Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:10 pm

JimLewis wrote:You can "solve" the bulge problem by planting the tree a bit deeper in its next pot.

+1

Also, there are too much big scars on this thin trunk, and they do not appeal to my eyes. Imho, they can be a part of nice image (only) if trunk gets thicker.
So I agree with Jim for both of these purposes.

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Re: Birch #2 virtual - go or no go?

Post  Guest on Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:19 pm

Sakaki wrote:
JimLewis wrote:You can "solve" the bulge problem by planting the tree a bit deeper in its next pot.

+1

Also, there are too much big scars on this thin trunk, and they do not appeal to my eyes. Imho, they can be a part of nice image (only) if trunk gets thicker.
So I agree with Jim for both of these purposes.

thanks for you opinion, but may i ask what burying the bulge deeper would do anything to thickening the trunk?

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Re: Birch #2 virtual - go or no go?

Post  Sakaki on Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:26 pm

yves71277 wrote:
Sakaki wrote:
JimLewis wrote:You can "solve" the bulge problem by planting the tree a bit deeper in its next pot.

+1

Also, there are too much big scars on this thin trunk, and they do not appeal to my eyes. Imho, they can be a part of nice image (only) if trunk gets thicker.
So I agree with Jim for both of these purposes.

thanks for you opinion, but may i ask what burying the bulge deeper would do anything to thickening the trunk?

Repotting it in a wider and deeper pot would serve for both purposes.

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Re: Birch #2 virtual - go or no go?

Post  Guest on Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:35 pm

Sakaki wrote:
yves71277 wrote:
Sakaki wrote:
JimLewis wrote:You can "solve" the bulge problem by planting the tree a bit deeper in its next pot.

+1

Also, there are too much big scars on this thin trunk, and they do not appeal to my eyes. Imho, they can be a part of nice image (only) if trunk gets thicker.
So I agree with Jim for both of these purposes.

thanks for you opinion, but may i ask what burying the bulge deeper would do anything to thickening the trunk?

Repotting it in a wider and deeper pot would serve for both purposes.

it is in a rather deep pot rather wide pot, certainly way bigger than it has too be. I saw the trunk thicken this year for first time since i had it, because (indeed) of this bigger pot but mostly because of the heavy pruning, good substrate and heavy fertilizing, so i got plenty of new growth (now again pruned back but all you see is new since 2 years.

Maybe a slightly thicker trunk, yes!, but a birch does not need a very thick trunk (like e.g. twice the size it is now). About the big wounds yes you're right, in classic bonsai everything must be sealed... that is true Smile

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Re: Birch #2 virtual - go or no go?

Post  GašperG on Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:01 pm

yves71277 wrote: Birches in nature, especially when trunkchopped, can produce this (like linden) when new shoots from the base (tendency towards root shooting and shoots at base)

Maybe you have already tought about a clump style...it would be the most natural and elegant solution for that bulb to hide under a group of trunks...i think, but (and again "one letter T" buts Very Happy ) i guess the main trunk would always look too thick and aged compared to younger ones - don't know, just thinking.

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Re: Birch #2 virtual - go or no go?

Post  Guest on Thu Nov 15, 2012 6:13 pm

GašperG wrote:
yves71277 wrote: Birches in nature, especially when trunkchopped, can produce this (like linden) when new shoots from the base (tendency towards root shooting and shoots at base)

Maybe you have already tought about a clump style...it would be the most natural and elegant solution for that bulb to hide under a group of trunks...i think, but (and again "one letter T" buts Very Happy ) i guess the main trunk would always look too thick and aged compared to younger ones - don't know, just thinking.

Not 'really' the clump style but something like a mini version of it. I once saw a spectacular (kokufu-worthy) fagus crenata, in Harry Tomlinson's 'the complete book of bonsai' (i looked it up, and i'm talking about page 43, the osaka exhibit, the tree on the right hand corner), that had this main trunk and was surrounded by a forest of mini trunks and branches, but more like a 'bush' around the tree...that one i always remembered, amazing... i admit i would like my modest birch look a bit like that...just a bit Smile

Thank you for your comment

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Re: Birch #2 virtual - go or no go?

Post  Guest on Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:16 pm

I had a birch a couple of years ago. I had problems with die back on the lower branches and when I tried to encourage back budding it only shot up new shoots from the ground. I finally gave up and got rid of it.

Looking at your photo I get the impression you're having some of the same trouble that I had. Ufortunately, I have no advice to give. I have only a question. What makes you think the threaded branch will survive? Is it a recommended remedy that works?

Or perhaps I do have some advice. The first (lowest) branch on the right (not the thread) looks good. Very good. I wonder if it'd be possible to root graft near your bulge, thus correcting the inverse taper and putting on a nice nebari that would compliment that excellent first branch, then working upward from there. Of course, the thread graft would have to go. Just a thought.

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Re: Birch #2 virtual - go or no go?

Post  Guest on Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:21 pm

Scion wrote:I had a birch a couple of years ago. I had problems with die back on the lower branches and when I tried to encourage back budding it only shot up new shoots from the ground. I finally gave up and got rid of it.

Looking at your photo I get the impression you're having some of the same trouble that I had. Ufortunately, I have no advice to give. I have only a question. What makes you think the threaded branch will survive? Is it a recommended remedy that works?

Or perhaps I do have some advice. The first (lowest) branch on the right (not the thread) looks good. Very good. I wonder if it'd be possible to root graft near your bulge, thus correcting the inverse taper and putting on a nice nebari that would compliment that excellent first branch, then working upward from there. Of course, the thread graft would have to go. Just a thought.

nope, not having that problem... it was a 'big' tree even, and i chopped off ALL the main branches (the many wounds on the trunk are a result)... and new shoots were plenty, healthy and vigorous ON the tree itself, i only let some develop. And the shoots off the ground always have been there, that is true. I have another birch where this is not the case, but then again that one i developed myself entirely from seed. It is however true, i will have to see that the energy is balanced throughout.

The root grafting, YES, but until now never did anything with that idea. But it is worth considering it again true, since the shoots i get i can work with (in my design) but that does indeed not really help the root/bulge issue

The problem here is that i DONT know what species of birch it is.. I have a betula pendula but it looks differtent in leaf and trunk... And when i dont know that i wont risk grafting into it

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Re: Birch #2 virtual - go or no go?

Post  Guest on Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:33 pm

yves71277 wrote:... And when i dont know that i wont risk grafting into it

That's good advice for anyone. Smile

EDIT: However, you do have an abundance of "same species" roots to chose from, with all of those ground shoots. With that in mind knowing what the tree is "exactly" is irrelevant to your cause, or at least of secondary importance.

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Re: Birch #2 virtual - go or no go?

Post  Guest on Thu Nov 15, 2012 7:44 pm

Scion wrote:
yves71277 wrote:... And when i dont know that i wont risk grafting into it

That's good advice for anyone. Smile

EDIT: However, you do have an abundance of "same species" roots to chose from, with all of those ground shoots. With that in mind knowing what the tree is "exactly" is irrelevant to your cause, or at least of secondary importance.

sorry, dont know what you mean here (or i dont understand :-)... because all of those shoots come from the bulge...the bulge is not only that bit at the very bottom of the trunk... here's a picture from when it was potted.
There's little root abundance to take away and graft


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Re: Birch #2 virtual - go or no go?

Post  -Daniel- on Thu Nov 15, 2012 8:33 pm

Hello. The plant has a beautiful base but unfortunately the log has many wounds long. I would try to share with young new plants the base and to create many trees.




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Re: Birch #2 virtual - go or no go?

Post  Guest on Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:47 am

yves71277 wrote:

sorry, dont know what you mean here (or i dont understand :-)... because all of those shoots come from the bulge...the bulge is not only that bit at the very bottom of the trunk... here's a picture from when it was potted.
There's little root abundance to take away and graft


What I mean is, you do have roots growing from that tree. So you don't need to worry about taking roots from another plant that might not be the same species.

Some of those roots can be "approach grafted" or "thread grafted" onto - into - or through the trunk in the exact postion you want. Your tree seems to be a long-term project anyway so root grafting seems to me like a good idea.

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Re: Birch #2 virtual - go or no go?

Post  marcus watts on Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:56 am

hi'

i believe birch are very slow to heal over pruning cuts - i was told they never heal over large wounds but cant confirm on the 'never' bit. I had one, it made no visual healing over 3 years so there is a certain amount of truth in it.

As you created so many pruning cuts all the way up the trunk, and it has a huge bur like lump on the base too I would consider 2 options - give it away at a club raffle Twisted Evil or plant it in the ground, let the bur lump get really big and saw it up into slices to use as jitta

mine never had a lump so i gave it away. Very Happy

good luck, Marcus

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Re: Birch #2 virtual - go or no go?

Post  Guest on Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:49 am

marcus watts wrote:hi'

i believe birch are very slow to heal over pruning cuts - i was told they never heal over large wounds but cant confirm on the 'never' bit. I had one, it made no visual healing over 3 years so there is a certain amount of truth in it.

As you created so many pruning cuts all the way up the trunk, and it has a huge bur like lump on the base too I would consider 2 options - give it away at a club raffle Twisted Evil or plant it in the ground, let the bur lump get really big and saw it up into slices to use as jitta

mine never had a lump so i gave it away. Very Happy

good luck, Marcus

Hi Marcus, and yes the healing is slow, and the never part i can believe in bigger wounds. Well, i dont seal anything too, i let nature have its way most of the times with wounds. Weird but they do form nice callus around the edges of where you've cut, a bit different from other trees its like plastic sometimes. Sorry if that sounds ridicolous but the callus forming looks different from other trees.

Very Happy yeah up until 2011 i was planning to 'drop' this one, but even an ugly duckling still needs a father. I have a thing with not-so-perfectness, personally i find it very attractive to have drama (yes, with wounds, or bark or..) combined with better branches. If I visit an exhibition I always go for drama, roughness... hardly ever do i like a very refined bonsai that complies with all the rules, i feel boredom there, sorry thats just me. Maybe thats way i only like native trees too, the branches and structures is more 'wild' and natural dan the compacted and horizontal styled juniperus or pines etc.

What an explanation, but it explains a bit why i continue with trees like this sometimes


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Re: Birch #2 virtual - go or no go?

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