Knot pine style

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Re: Knot pine style

Post  AlainK on Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:48 pm

sunip wrote:
A French tree.

We're not all "bent", mind you. Laughing

Or perhaps, you're talking about the species: which one is it?...

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Re: Knot pine style

Post  sunip on Sat Dec 01, 2012 8:52 pm

Hello,

Oak.

Sunip Wink

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Re: Knot pine style

Post  Vance Wood on Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:29 am

You ought to be very pleased with this creation. The fact that no one is ambivalent about it is an accomplishment in itself. Some love it, including me, and others hate it. For me, it fulfills my necessary parameter: the tree must be plausible and beautiful, everything else is nothing more that the means to an end. An abrupt departure from the norm works when the imagination is piqued to accept the image as a real tree. If that departure had been more unnatural in the end no one would have liked it. It looks like a tree that nature had a problem with, it does not look like a Volks Wagon or a squirrel. Just because none of us has seen a tree twisted up like this one does not mean one does not exist or one could not exist----that's what plausible means.

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Re: Knot pine style

Post  Rob C on Tue Dec 11, 2012 10:29 pm

First.. I love this tree. Second, if this was a shimpkau juniper, I think more people would be receptive to it. I have been wanting to try something like this on something other than a juniper. However, I would probably want to find a younger, thinner trunked tree that I can put all my own bending in.

Also, I know that it is not common to add shari to pines. However, if there was jin and shari on this tree, it would be like something that would be in Kimura's garden.

p.s. Did I mention I love this tree. Very Happy

Rob

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Re: Knot pine style

Post  Vance Wood on Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:51 pm

Yesterday I spent some time viewing some YouTube videos about bonsai. I was particularly impressed with Ryan Niels demonstration in Europe. He made the comment that his bonsai designs are his impressions of what a bonsai should look like, not a mirror of the Japanese style or any other style for that matter. I very much like your tree and I think (what do I know) that you should not accept the criticism that Pines do not grow this way. Of course that's the magic of bonsai, it is an exercise in surrealism, where you successfully produce a piece of art that demonstrates the believability of the unbelievable, the possibility of the impossible, and the existence of the nonexistent. The tree's believable, in my view, it is beautiful and its potential is obvious.

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Re: Knot pine style

Post  Patrick Cremers on Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:12 pm

I love this tree ! good job ThumbsUp

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Re: Knot pine style

Post  Barry M on Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:50 am

A bit too contorted in my opinion.

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Re: Knot pine style

Post  Velodog2 on Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:58 am

I guess I may as well weigh in on this design as well. I have no problem with the concept and have seen trees in the mountains that are about as contorted. But the current design seems somewhat artless. Dorothy's virtual helps. Also, and forgive me for this, but I can't help but feel the design is vaguely obscene. Ha, that probably reflects more on me than the tree!

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Re: Knot pine style

Post  Vance Wood on Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:23 pm

Velodog2 wrote:I guess I may as well weigh in on this design as well. I have no problem with the concept and have seen trees in the mountains that are about as contorted. But the current design seems somewhat artless. Dorothy's virtual helps. Also, and forgive me for this, but I can't help but feel the design is vaguely obscene. Ha, that probably reflects more on me than the tree!

I think the real issue is that the foliage mass needs to develop for a couple of years before there is something tangible to work with. That is an issue of time not artistry----IMHO.

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Re: Knot pine style

Post  law on Sun Dec 30, 2012 11:16 pm

Winter time. Let it sleep. I will tell you when it will wake up.

Thank you everibody. For or against.

I liike both.

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Re: Knot pine style

Post  Dan W. on Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:53 am

I personally like this one a lot. Smile Even if you can't see it as a possible natural tree... it's just fun! What's wrong with that?

Here are some very contorted trees... done by nature and styled/idealized by an artist:
http://www.bonsaimirai.com/portfolio/ponderosa-pine-25.html
http://www.bonsaimirai.com/portfolio/ponderosa-pine-07.html
http://www.bonsaimirai.com/portfolio/ponderosa-pine-16.html

Andy Smith has a ponderosa that is one big knot as well but I can't locate the picture at the moment.

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Re: Knot pine style

Post  AlainK on Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:16 am

Bonsoir,

To me, the first one looks very artificial. I can't see any artistry in that. A couple of straight twigs from a bent corkscrew, so what ?...

The second one has a potential. But nothing to do with Laurent's "knotted bowels" pine.

The third one is coming along nicely.

"Comparaison n'est pas raison", and you can't compare these (except maybe the fist one which looks very artificial, and everyone can see that, even if they're not experts) with a whimsical fantasy of a "tree" whose only interest is that it is totally un-natural and -oh, how great this guy is to make a tree look like chitterlings.

Applaud, applaud, the King is naked. Hare Krishn,a, Om Shanti Om...

flutter eyelashes






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Re: Knot pine style

Post  Dan W. on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:14 am

I really don't care whether you like them or not...(they aren't mine...lol) I was just showing how crazy trees can grow Naturally. And my point was not about whether or not they look natural... but that they are natural. Trees actually grow like this in the Rocky Mountains because of wind and other conditions.

Some were discussing whether or not a tree could twist in to a knot naturally... I was giving natural examples of very contorted trees.

I also think you may not have looked through all of the pictures to see the trees after styling...?

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Re: Knot pine style

Post  Vance Wood on Wed Jan 23, 2013 12:55 pm

Dan W. wrote:I really don't care whether you like them or not...(they aren't mine...lol) I was just showing how crazy trees can grow Naturally. And my point was not about whether or not they look natural... but that they are natural. Trees actually grow like this in the Rocky Mountains because of wind and other conditions.

Some were discussing whether or not a tree could twist in to a knot naturally... I was giving natural examples of very contorted trees.

I also think you may not have looked through all of the pictures to see the trees after styling...?

Some people have never made a trip to the mountains to see this kind of thing for themselves. Because the argument that these bazar forms do not happen naturally is based only on a lack of personal observation, it is assumed that they do not exist; if I have not seen it, it is not real. There is too a tendency, when assessing bonsai material, to judiciously adhere to certain forms that more or less conform to the more standardized images. Any thing that does not fit this pigeon hole becomes suspect.

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Re: Knot pine style

Post  Velodog2 on Wed Jan 23, 2013 2:37 pm

Whether or not this could occur in nature is an interesting diversion from the topic of the attractiveness of this tree. I have been in the mountains and seen all sorts of fantastical forms. Not all, or even many, would I consider beautiful. But I can also see many trees, all natural, on my commute to work in the morning that I do not consider beautiful, without having to go to the mountains. This is a problem I have with so-called "naturalistic" styling. It is true that bonsai should look like trees in nature, but preferably more beautiful than the average. As for the "knotty pine", I don't care if it could occur in nature or not. It still so far just looks like a tree with its head up its butt to me. But give it time I suppose. Most of my trees are only beautiful when I project them into the future in my mind ...

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Re: Knot pine style

Post  Vance Wood on Wed Jan 23, 2013 3:43 pm

When you look through some of the bonsai that have been documented by people like Pavel, as to long term development, it becomes apparent that some of the most unlikely trees can be transformed into truly spectacular bonsai in the right hands. It is our lack of vision that limits what trees we deem as useful and what trees we consider a waste of time.

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Re: Knot pine style

Post  Barry M on Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:40 pm

There are people who have a negative view of Bonsai because they feel that somehow such trees while attractive are being "tortured." I don't feel that way of course. But, I'm afraid that this sort of design lends to that conception and frankly is counter to the venerable image that a bonsai generally has.

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Re: Knot pine style

Post  Vance Wood on Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:25 pm

Barry M wrote:There are people who have a negative view of Bonsai because they feel that somehow such trees while attractive are being "tortured." I don't feel that way of course. But, I'm afraid that this sort of design lends to that conception and frankly is counter to the venerable image that a bonsai generally has.

HO--LEE--CRAP, The tortured tree gambit again. If you believe, or choose to accept this idea as legitimate, then stop mowing your lawn. These are trees not cows, or cats, or dogs. Nature does this to trees all of the time and the trees take on these shapes unless nature does another thing it tends to do; kill the damn things. If you accept this convoluted idea then you should have problems justifying any type of bonsai culture regardless of how extreme or benign the shape, a bonsai is a man made image put into a pot, neither of which would happen naturally.

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Re: Knot pine style

Post  Just Mike on Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:31 pm

i posed this question in a different thread at one point, and considering the conversation being had, maybe it would be good to pose the same question here...

i think that it is fairly common to ask ourselves the question "would this tree grow like this in nature?" or "does this tree look natural?"...and sometimes people come to the conclusion that the tree doesnt look natural enough, or that it wouldnt grow like that in the wild, or whatever...i personally find this way of thinking extremely limiting...nature is full of so many variables that the same exact species found in different areas can have great differences and variation...the area doesnt even have to be that far apart to see this...one mountain alone can show the same species having very different apearances just on elevation levels alone...now, we all "know" this, and accept it openly as one of natures gifts, but yet, we still confine ourselves by asking "IF the tree would grow like this in nature", when instead, we may find better answers by asking "HOW would this tree grow like this in nature"...what CONDITIONS are we trying to portray in our styling?...to me, those are better questions to ask...

in terms of the knot style...sure, you wont probably find a mountain covered with knot style trees, but you can most deffinately find a tree that has survived certain conditions to grow that like naturally...wind, high elevation, maybe a minor rock slide, etc, etc...the style is obviously expresive, and to me challenges the viewer to wonder and search for answers as to the "how"...isnt that what we are trying to achieve in our chosen art? to envoke thought and emotion in the viewer...to make a person pause and wonder or daydream for a moment...to take them on a journey to a different place if not just for a split second? maybe im am just getting old and overly eccentric, but i find myself broadening my view of what bonsai even means...

as far as the tormented tortured tree argument...well...again, arent we attempting to portray conditions of some sort? and arent some of the most magnificint things in nature born through enduring the random, unpredictable, chaotic, and often destructive circumstances? this doesnt mean the tree is unhealthy or tortured...the exact opposite from what i see...most peope baby their bonsai almost too much, and are usually much healthier than your average landscape...

this is all just my opinion of course, and not trying to dissagree with anyone...feel free to disregard anything i say since im pretty sure i lost my mind long ago and continue to grow crazier by the day...

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Re: Knot pine style

Post  Dan W. on Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:03 pm

Well said Just Mike Smile

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Re: Knot pine style

Post  Vance Wood on Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:18 pm

The image of a bonsai may or may not reflect those found in nature. Bonsai is in a real sense a surrealistic exercise even if the tree is designed to look just like the tree in the front yard along the street. The image at best is only plausible in that it cannot be a precise depiction because of the size differences it can only represent the image. Sometimes in bonsai we strive to create that which seems possible, or beautiful, or pleasing to our eyes. If it is important to you that those who think they have you by the short hair by claiming this is not natural maybe you should find something else to do and turn your bonsai into one of the other natural alternatives; fire wood.

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Re: Knot pine style

Post  Hans van Meer. on Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:09 pm

Or sometimes we just want to creat a thing of beauty or interest and our medium happens to be a tree or scrub!
It's to others to decide if we were successful or not!
It that simple!

cheers,
Hans van Meer.

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Re: Knot pine style

Post  Hans van Meer. on Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:11 pm

Hans van Meer. wrote:Or sometimes we just want to creat a thing off beauty or interest and our medium happens to be a tree or scrub!
It's to others to decide if we were successful or not!
It that simple!

Cheers,
Hans van Meer.

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ooppss!

Post  Hans van Meer. on Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:12 pm

Or sometimes we post things twice! Embarassed Very Happy

Cheers,
Hans van Meer

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Re: Knot pine style

Post  Just Mike on Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:36 pm

and sometimes we are just bored and decide to do something outside of the normal...

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Re: Knot pine style

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