Acer Palm. Kiyohime

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Re: Acer Palm. Kiyohime

Post  Heinz Leitner on Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:15 am

Hello Russell
I'm not your opinion ...
The broom shape lives of many fine branching ..
Why should I cut off?
As already mentioned, a photo is not reality
Heinz

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Re: Acer Palm. Kiyohime

Post  Russell Coker on Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:24 pm



Heinz Leitner wrote:Why should I cut off?



Well, I've tried to explain.... twice. I guess I see something you don't, something that bothers me but doesn't bother you. And, yes, brooms have many fine branches... but there is also ORDER to those branches, order that I don't see here. But that's just my opinion, so good luck with your tree!

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Re: Acer Palm. Kiyohime

Post  JimLewis on Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:31 pm

What I think Russell is saying is that your broom shape is fine, but the broom is too dense --you have too many branches, so many that you cannot see the detail inside the tree. Part of bonsai is simplicity; our designs emulate nature's design, but do not copy it. Less is more.

To me, the tree is very confused inside the red "circle (excuse my shaky hands on the mouse). It would be better to have fewer heavy branches here, then work on the ramification higher in the tree. The ultimate effect would be the same, but our eyes could trace the branches as they ascend into the canopy, letting us see the "tree."



But I may be totally misinterpreting what Russell was saying.

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Re: Acer Palm. Kiyohime

Post  Russell Coker on Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:44 pm



JimLewis wrote:But I may be totally misinterpreting what Russell was saying.


No, you just said it better! And in that circle, the area in the bottom left bothers me the most, especially that one branch that arches up across the others.

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Re: Acer Palm. Kiyohime

Post  Guest on Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:15 pm

I see 2 branches I would remove...They are not bonsai-nice.


Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: Acer Palm. Kiyohime

Post  Andrew Legg on Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:59 pm

Heinz Leitner wrote:Hello Russell
I'm not your opinion ...
The broom shape lives of many fine branching ..
Why should I cut off?
As already mentioned, a photo is not reality
Heinz

Heinz, I think what Russell is suggesting is that you go from trunk to 5 (just a number) thicker branches, and then from those thicker branches to 25 and then into ramification, and not from trunk straight into 25 thinner branches. That said, I guess that's entirely up to what you like and want to achieve. Either way, I'd happily pop that little porker on my bench!!! cheers

Cheers,

Andrew

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Re: Acer Palm. Kiyohime

Post  adam1234 on Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:06 pm

When this tree was shown while in leaf with the autumn colours it looked beautiful. This might be the back of the tree in these recent photos and as such those branches which show congestion would not be a problem. Maybe a photo of the other side might show things differently. Some trees may look congested when photographed but may not appear so when seen in the flesh. If I owned this tree I would not look towards enjoying it leafless but rather in its autumn glory. I like the tree Heinz and if I felt that manicuring the tree too much would make it loose its natural branching and beautiful canopy I would not remove branches.

Cheers,
Adam

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Re: Acer Palm. Kiyohime

Post  Russell Coker on Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:27 pm




adam1234 wrote: If I owned this tree I would not look towards enjoying it leafless but rather in its autumn glory.


And there's the problem....

With just a little tweeking this tree could look good in ALL seasons... shouldn't we all be working towards that with our bonsai?

Thanks Andrew.


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Re: Acer Palm. Kiyohime

Post  adam1234 on Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:21 pm

Russell Coker wrote:


adam1234 wrote: If I owned this tree I would not look towards enjoying it leafless but rather in its autumn glory.


And there's the problem....

With just a little tweeking this tree could look good in ALL seasons... shouldn't we all be working towards that with our bonsai?

Thanks Andrew.


Looking good is not good enough for me. I'd want it looking excellent and if I couldn't have that then I'd look elsewhere for excellence, like autumn colours and a good canopy. Personally, Kiyohime branching does not impress me because of its nature and so would dissapoint me in winter even if the tweeking would make it good. There are only a few trees that have it all and I personally would look towards a tree's best feature and enjoy only that just in case I get dissapointed in other areas and chuck it in the compost bin. However, I would strive to better the tree in all areas. Most times we see evergreens with branches bent in unnatural positions to bring a foliage pads to where we want, hiding faults and unnatural bends, reverse tapers etc and we forgive that because we won't see it but punish deciduous species because they bare all. For me, this tree is best in autumn and for a winter image I'd look at some other tree to sit on the benches with excellent branch structure, beautiful bark etc. As I have said, this tree might appear different when viewed in the flesh as repeated by Heinz already. Third dimension? different angle? might it change things? I hope I have not insulted Heinz and if I did I am sorry and was not my intention to insult. I like the tree Heinz and wouldn't mind owning it and with a 1m wide canopy must be breathtaking in autumn.

Cheers,
Adam

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Re: Acer Palm. Kiyohime

Post  Sam Ogranaja on Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:40 am

adam1234 wrote:Looking good is not good enough for me. I'd want it looking excellent and if I couldn't have that then I'd look elsewhere for excellence, like autumn colours and a good canopy.

Hey Adam,

Your comments are a bit confusing to me. It appears that you and Russell are both striving for excellence. But, are you saying that excellence cannot be achieved with this species? Does Kiyohime have some kind of growth habit to prevent that?

Of course, "excellence" is subjective. It's Heinz's tree and he can keep it exactly as he would like, no matter what we think. Autumn color is excellent. While I agree with Russell that some changes would only enhance the tree, that is strictly my opinion. I would love it on my bench.

Thanks for sharing Heinz and please keep us posted.
Sam

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Re: Acer Palm. Kiyohime

Post  adam1234 on Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:03 am

Sam,

What I am trying to say is that if those changes compromise the beautiful canopy and therefore result in a good but not excellent autumn display I would, if I owned the tree, think really hard about making those changes. The pictures are in 2D but the tree is 3D, the sugested branches to be removed appear to come toward the viewer and if removed might create a huge gap in the canopy and a poor 2D flat view of the tree in real life but will be an excellent picture taken with the camera. Have a look at the tree side by side with the 2 images (I've horizontally flipped one of the images). There is also the point where Heinz has said that the tree looks alright and we cannot see the third dimension. Personally Kiyohimes, to me, do not have incredibly beautiful twisty natural branching, just straight branching and I would first look at a trees best feature (in this case the autumn colour) before anything else and forgive character. I don't want to go ahhhhhhhh seeing it in autumn and then mmmmmmm in winter. A video of the tree rotated around would be nice if possible to study the tree even further. Supposing then we remove that congestion, would we not need to fill that space with foliage? The only way then is to get branches descend from the other branches left. The resulting image, in my opinion, would look unnatural. By the way, I am only a novice in this hobby.


Adam

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Re: Acer Palm. Kiyohime

Post  drgonzo on Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:24 am

Sam,

It is exactly because of the growth habit of Kiyohime, that we wind up with tons of long spindly branches with all the foliage on the outer tips and thus the center is too shaded to back bud, inner branches die back, thus exacerbating the problem year over year over year. We wind up with a topiary and not the image of a tree with elegant branches. Its just something we have to know about before hand when getting into it with one of these and then we can work around it.

When this species is not thinned and pruned correctly, just as with Japanese beech, you may certainly wind up with a tree that looks good only in one or two seasons, rather then having a tree that looks splendid year round if the work is done to manage the growth habit correctly every year.

This is a classic example of a Kiyo that looks great, but in my opinion could look much better if the leap is taken now to re assert control over the congestion. I often see Japanese Beech like this and once brought back under control and with a regimen of pruning and thinning applied religiously every year, the results and improvement become dramatic.

I speak from experience as I am having to put both My Large specimen Kiyohime and my Japanese Beech through the same sort of "tough love", but in a few years the results will be worth it to be sure!

Best
-Jay


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Re: Acer Palm. Kiyohime

Post  Russell Coker on Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:08 am

drgonzo wrote:This is a classic example of a Kiyo that looks great, but in my opinion could look much better if the leap is taken now to re assert control over the congestion. I often see Japanese Beech like this and once brought back under control and with a regimen of pruning and thinning applied religiously every year, the results and improvement become dramatic.



Exactly. Somewhere along the line we went from removing a few too many branches that don't relate to the rest of the tree to thinning it out so much that we're creating gaps in the canopy. That was never my intent, or that of anyone else as far as I can see. I can't imagine any of those branches being missed if they were removed, and the tree would be better as a result.

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Re: Acer Palm. Kiyohime

Post  Justin Hervey on Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:19 am

Heinz, as you are new to the forum I feel that you may be offended by some of the observations. Please don't be.
This is pretty much what happens here, you may be perfectly happy with your tree but peoples opinions vary and we do all enjoy a discussion.

Nothing is intended to be offensive.

Cheers and enjoy.

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Re: Acer Palm. Kiyohime

Post  Heinz Leitner on Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:04 am

Hello to all
I'm glad that my tree triggers a Disskussion.
I'm not offended .. why
As I've written it lacks the third dimension.
I will on occasion do a few close-ups to show you the branches
The tree is already beeindruckent by its own dimension.
Improvements on the tree are immmer happen, but I'll cut out any branches.
Show me a comparable quality and Palmatum in this dimension and you will be able to convince me, then maybe.Moreover, there is an evil in this variety of mushroom branches can die from my thankfully was spared until now.
Heinz











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Re: Acer Palm. Kiyohime

Post  William N. Valavanis on Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:52 pm

I have had a bit of experience training the dwarf or yatsubusa cultivars of Japanese maples for over 40 years. Two of the most popular cultivars are Kiyo Hime and Kashima, which are quite similar, but have different growth habits. These are explained in detail and photos in my new book Classical Bonsai Art.

But, basically to avoid branching like the broom style bonsai discussed in this thread, the opening buds must be pinched in order to avoid the heavy straight branches, plus they must be trimmed. If allowed to grow naturally, the form of the bonsai will not be refined. In classical bonsai art the form must be refined and controlled, not allowed to grow naturally. You will notice that the heavy branches of all bonsai posted here have bee removed or shortened to allow the fine delicate refine twigs be displayed.

Its transplanting time here in Rochester, NY and also bud pinching time. I'll try to photograph bud pinching my Kiyo Hime maples today since its already on the schedule to show what I'm talking about. But, in the meantime, I'm attaching a few photos of my Kiyo Hime Japanese maple bonsai and a Kashima. These photos are from my new book which has 89 pages of just maple training in brilliant color photos. There are 256 pages with over 675 photos in the book. Since I like maples, they are a considerable chapter.

Bill


Kiyo hime airlayered from top of taller bonsai


Same Kiyo hime in winter


Kiyo Hime before long branch broke...


New design


Developing





Kashima after branch thinning in spring


Kashima after bud pinching

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Re: Acer Palm. Kiyohime

Post  Heinz Leitner on Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:17 pm

Hi Bill
Wonderful trees you show there.
My problem with the Kiyohime is that he is getting bigger with time, in diameter, and then I have to resort to radical methods and do in May after sprouting with a hedge trimmer to cut into the old wood.
That happens every 2-3 years.
Do you do this differently?
When you cut the new shoots?
Where can I buy your book?
Heinz

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Re: Acer Palm. Kiyohime

Post  William N. Valavanis on Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:29 pm

Heinz,

Glad you like my bonsai. YES, the maples do grow larger, that's why it is necessary to bud pinch AND trim. If you bud pinch, at the correct time, the tree will NOT grow again that year. It just sits there. That is why you don't bud pinch until after the shape has been developed. Your bonsai is developed, but grew large. It must be drastically pruned to reduce the size. Just before, or as the new shoots are opening is the best time to drastically prune deciduous species, including the dwarf maples. Loppers, not a hedge shear will be necessary, followed up with carving the wounds and covering with cut paste.

For now, I would suggest trimming back your Kiyo Hime bonsai about one half, then next spring, reducing more, if you want to maintain the beauty, increase refinement and make the tree a smaller size.

Bill

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Re: Acer Palm. Kiyohime

Post  William N. Valavanis on Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:31 pm

I forgot: You may order my new book,

Classical Bonsai Art- A Half Century of Bonsai Study, the Creations and Passion of William N. Valavanis,
through my web site at:

http://www.internationalbonsai.com/page/1442819

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Re: Acer Palm. Kiyohime

Post  Heinz Leitner on Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:41 pm

Thank you Bill
Overlap with the buds of the tree but is weakened, or are you a different opinion.
I have reduced my maple from 110cm to 80 cm and now he's back 110 cm, after 3 years.
But he's now also branched fine.
Thanks for your advice.
Heinz

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Re: Acer Palm. Kiyohime

Post  Heinz Leitner on Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:01 pm

So it looks to cut out (May 2010)

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Re: Acer Palm. Kiyohime

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