Bonsai Myths

Page 2 of 2 Previous  1, 2

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: Bonsai Myths

Post  JimLewis on Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:16 pm

papymandarin wrote:another less known myth is the use of low nitrogen feed in automn, supposedly not to trigger additional growth or to avoid an explosive growth in spring (trees being able to store nitrogen). There are 2 wrong things here: 1)feed in itself cannot "make a tree grow again" in the wrong season, this is temperatures and the lenght of days that do so. 2) the absorption of P, K and a lot of other things is CONDITIONED by the availability in N, meaning if there is no N to absorb, you can put all the P and K you want the tree will not be able to take it. Better use an equilibrate feed diluted rather than a 0 N feed if you want your tree to take P and K.

YES!

_________________
Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

JimLewis
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Bonsai Myths

Post  rps on Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:27 pm

JimLewis wrote:
papymandarin wrote:another less known myth is the use of low nitrogen feed in automn, supposedly not to trigger additional growth or to avoid an explosive growth in spring (trees being able to store nitrogen). There are 2 wrong things here: 1)feed in itself cannot "make a tree grow again" in the wrong season, this is temperatures and the lenght of days that do so. 2) the absorption of P, K and a lot of other things is CONDITIONED by the availability in N, meaning if there is no N to absorb, you can put all the P and K you want the tree will not be able to take it. Better use an equilibrate feed diluted rather than a 0 N feed if you want your tree to take P and K.

YES!

I was busted by no less a figure than Walter Pall on this one!
Although, I did phrase my myth in the form of a [stupid] question.


Last edited by rps on Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:26 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typo, typo, typo)

rps
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Bonsai Myths

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:06 pm

Ah Fellows a stupid one,

what about the fir bark stuff you guys use, needing nitrogen to decompose, and robbing the soil of nitrogen to decompose.
Is that a fairy tale as well ?

I would - imagine - that with my compost, there is some nitrogen available and thus I could use a no nitrogen fertilizer.
'
True or false ---- need some input, please.
Until.
Khaimraj

* Don't think I have ever used a zero Nitrogen fertilizer.

Khaimraj Seepersad
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Bonsai Myths

Post  Sakaki on Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:43 pm

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Ah Fellows a stupid one,

what about the fir bark stuff you guys use, needing nitrogen to decompose, and robbing the soil of nitrogen to decompose.
Is that a fairy tale as well ?

I would - imagine - that with my compost, there is some nitrogen available and thus I could use a no nitrogen fertilizer.
'
True or false ---- need some input, please.
Until.
Khaimraj

* Don't think I have ever used a zero Nitrogen fertilizer.

Mr. Seepersad

I had read many articles about compost before I start using it; and what I learnt is that: "N" content of composts is quite variable from one compost to another, and in very small rates compared to fertilizers.
And there are many types of such composts.
So what kind of compost we're talking about?
(One more important thing is that: such composts in soil mixture are consumed away by the time, sometimes very quickly).

Sakaki
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Bonsai Myths

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:47 pm

Sakaki,

it's Khaimraj, please , so formal are you ?

Anyhow, the question was directed to fir bark or other organic sources used by the fellahs in the US or Canada or other.

To my compost, it is a blend of bamboo cuttings, avocado, mango, grasses, weeds and anything else in the yard. A roughly 3m cubed heap under the avocado tree. It is sifted once a year and then dampened and left to cure for another year in a covered barrel.
The last two years or so, I have added on rabbit droppings soaked onto sawdust.
When I do use the compost it is dark and no particles are recognizable.

Yes, it is a low N.P.K, but I have been growing trees in it for over say 30 years. However during the dry weather months of January's end until April/May or June when the rains return, I fertilize with 1/3 strength lawn fertilizer, since my placement is full sun for all trees/shrubs that grow naturally that way.

Also mantra ----------- we grow Bonsai for beauty, not size or food/fruit.

Apart from Parasol [ leaf cutting ants ] and large brown grasshoppers, I have no need for insecticides. If I do use a "cide"
it is a systemic for a ladybug type that eats the leaves of the Barbados clerodendron i.

The fertilizer in the dry months keeps the leaves green, but growth is slow and short of extension.
The humidity will also drop to as low as 45 %
I repot after January 2nd, every year for January month. This gives the trees ample time to rootbind before the rainy weather.

During the rainy season, there is no need for fertilizer and the plants are root bound enough to handle the excessive water coming down. So I still have to water, just twice a day or less. Dry season requires two passes of the watering can in the morning and a third in the evening always before 5.30 p.m.

The crushed sifted earthenware red brick is in my mix to act as a reservoir for water and I suspect because this a low fired material, the fine hairs on the roots are feeding off of the clay.
I also recycle my soils through a set of sieves, to regain the brick and sifted builders quartz sand. Saves on cost. The organic left behind will have clumped and be usable. The fines are put back into the vegetable garden.

I try to grow my Bonsai as a natural cycle, works thus far.
Hope this explains.
Khaimraj

* I will if I am feeling lazy or other add cocopeat with a little compost, as the compost causes the cocopeat to decay faster in our climate.
I have chemical breakdowns for many composts and for coconut husks [ but when ashed.]

Khaimraj Seepersad
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Bonsai Myths

Post  JimLewis on Tue Oct 02, 2012 6:20 pm

If it is already "compost" you needn't worry about loss of nitrogen.

However, if you are using a mulch that is heavy in WOOD chips, the wood chips will gobble N as they try to decompose.

Bark mulch, not being as dense as wood and having more voids within the bark itself, likely will not take as heavy a hit on the N as it decomposes. Its decomposition will be much quicker than wood. A caution: There is a fair amount of supposition in that last sentence.

_________________
Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

JimLewis
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Bonsai Myths

Post  Sakaki on Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:23 am

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Sakaki,

it's Khaimraj, please , so formal are you ?

Anyhow, the question was directed to fir bark or other organic sources used by the fellahs in the US or Canada or other.

To my compost, it is a blend of bamboo cuttings, avocado, mango, grasses, weeds and anything else in the yard. A roughly 3m cubed heap under the avocado tree. It is sifted once a year and then dampened and left to cure for another year in a covered barrel.
The last two years or so, I have added on rabbit droppings soaked onto sawdust.
When I do use the compost it is dark and no particles are recognizable.

Yes, it is a low N.P.K, but I have been growing trees in it for over say 30 years. However during the dry weather months of January's end until April/May or June when the rains return, I fertilize with 1/3 strength lawn fertilizer, since my placement is full sun for all trees/shrubs that grow naturally that way.

Also mantra ----------- we grow Bonsai for beauty, not size or food/fruit.

Apart from Parasol [ leaf cutting ants ] and large brown grasshoppers, I have no need for insecticides. If I do use a "cide"
it is a systemic for a ladybug type that eats the leaves of the Barbados clerodendron i.

The fertilizer in the dry months keeps the leaves green, but growth is slow and short of extension.
The humidity will also drop to as low as 45 %
I repot after January 2nd, every year for January month. This gives the trees ample time to rootbind before the rainy weather.

During the rainy season, there is no need for fertilizer and the plants are root bound enough to handle the excessive water coming down. So I still have to water, just twice a day or less. Dry season requires two passes of the watering can in the morning and a third in the evening always before 5.30 p.m.

The crushed sifted earthenware red brick is in my mix to act as a reservoir for water and I suspect because this a low fired material, the fine hairs on the roots are feeding off of the clay.
I also recycle my soils through a set of sieves, to regain the brick and sifted builders quartz sand. Saves on cost. The organic left behind will have clumped and be usable. The fines are put back into the vegetable garden.

I try to grow my Bonsai as a natural cycle, works thus far.
Hope this explains.
Khaimraj

* I will if I am feeling lazy or other add cocopeat with a little compost, as the compost causes the cocopeat to decay faster in our climate.
I have chemical breakdowns for many composts and for coconut husks [ but when ashed.]

Hi Khaimraj,
(is it fine with you now?) Smile

Thank you very much for your detailed & sincere answer.
Actually my soil mixture is almost same with yours: fine gravels (pebbles) + pumice + cocopeat (fine grade) + compost + small amount of leonardit
But as I am not sure about the amount of N existing in such soil mixture, I always support my plants with a fertilizer that have relatively low "N" rate. And I did not felt deficiency of N yet.

Take care

Sakaki
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Bonsai Myths

Post  Brett Summers on Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:42 am

JimLewis wrote:There have been several articles written on this subject over the years, but it never hurts to have another.

If I were writing one (as you all might guess) I'd add Superthrive, Vitamin B, and (lately) HB101 to the top of the list.

LOL the Myth that there is no evidence that Superthrive works! I think you started that Myth Jim.

Brett Summers
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Bonsai Myths

Post  Mitch Thomas on Fri Oct 05, 2012 8:55 pm

Bonsai myth # 5436788

Bonsai must be kept in full in enterupted sun from sunrise till dark.

This advise has killed more bonsai than I care to think about!

Bonsai myth # 5436789.533 section Q

New growth on Junipers must be pinched every day of the year.

Yep especially if you like them brown and crunchie!

Mitch


Last edited by Mitch Thomas on Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:26 am; edited 1 time in total

Mitch Thomas
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Bonsai Myths

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:05 am

Mitch,

was that supposed to be - in full uninterrupted sun 6a.m. to 6 p.m. ?

If so, what I have observed is -- if the tree or shrub takes full sun as a mature plant in nature, then even as a mame' the Bonsai will, if the soil is correct. In fact to get much smaller leaves, with only one defoliation a year [ which I believe is much healthier for the plant ] full sun is a must.
However note our island humdity seldom goes below 45% and then only for an hour or two and not every day, but I also live on the side of a hill, with a light breeze all day.

Junipers do poorly by me, but well for those near the sea.
Later.
Khaimraj

Khaimraj Seepersad
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Bonsai Myths

Post  JMcCoy on Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:58 am

Here's a myth that only applies to those marginally interested in Bonsai (not those here): that all Bonsai are indoor & outdoor trees. One of those guys selling sickly procumbens "mallsai" on the side of the road was telling this to folks. I stopped and quizzed him myself specifically asking about his junipers and he looked at me, slapped his hands together and said "inside, outside, no problem!" Rolling Eyes

JMcCoy
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Bonsai Myths

Post  Mitch Thomas on Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:43 am

Khaimraj
Yes, some trees mostly tropical love uninterrupted sunlite here where I live. We too have a high humidity which rarely dips below 75%. Most trees cannot handle the high pot temperatures generated by direct sun here.

JMcCoy
Yea those guys are only worried about getting your money! I really don't think they know the damage that is being done to future bonsaist!

Mitch

Mitch Thomas
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Bonsai Myths

Post  Sakaki on Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:01 am

Mitch Thomas wrote:Bonsai myth # 5436788

Bonsai must be kept in full in enterupted sunlite from sunrise till dark.

This advise has killed more bonsai than I care to think about!

Mitch

Hi Mitch

I think this generalization changes also depending on the species.
E.g. my olives are under full sun all day whereas my tamarixes or hawthorns are not.

Sakaki
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Bonsai Myths

Post  Mitch Thomas on Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:29 am

Sakaki
Exactly right there are very few species that can handle that much heat in bonsai culture !
Olives are a extremely hardy specie! I love them.

Mitch

Mitch Thomas
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Bonsai Myths

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Sat Oct 06, 2012 1:40 pm

These can handle and thrive under full sun, western exposure over an asphalt surface.
Later.
Khaimraj

Celtis a. and o.
Tamarind,
Cuphea,
Caribbean/Honduran pine
Japanese Black Pine,
Tamarind,
Taxodium d.,
Boxwood [ China]
Murraya,
Ulmus, catlin, yatsubusa,seiju and the so called southern Chinese elms.
Olea a.
Fustic,
Serissa [ Chinese, Varigata, the full flower form ]
Oxy,
Fortunella,
Ficus types,
Clerodendron i.
Flacourtia [ spelling ]
Texas Ebony,
Cats Claw, [ Pithecellobium type]
Rosemary,
Illex yaupon,
Ixora,
Gmelina,
Fukien tea,
Guava types,
Leucenia [ spelling?]
Elephant bush,
Conocarpus e.
Seagrape [ cocoloba]
Podocarpus,
Citrus types
Water Jasmine,
Combreteace [ spelling ? Bucidas]
Sida a.
Punica g. and nana and minima.
Oxalis,
Still testing Sageretia t.
And there are more, just forgot the Latin names.

Khaimraj Seepersad
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Bonsai Myths

Post  rps on Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 pm

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:These can handle and thrive under full sun, western exposure over an asphalt surface.

add tamarack [larix larcina], although I can't speak to the asphalt in the case of this species Wink
mine adore full sun, from sunrise to set --- however, they are thirsty little charges.

rps
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Bonsai Myths

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:06 pm

For me, I suspect, soil makes the difference - red brick holds mositure in itself, as does compost/cocopeat - and the asphalt will stay moist after watering in the morning for a few hours. I also water after 4.30 in the evening, but before the late evening, so everyone goes into dusk dry of leaf.
Our humidity probably helps as well as the evening climbs back to 70 or 80%.
Later.
Khaimraj

forgot one - eleagnus [ Chinese type ?]

Khaimraj Seepersad
Member


Back to top Go down

Re: Bonsai Myths

Post  Sponsored content Today at 4:35 pm


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 2 of 2 Previous  1, 2

View previous topic View next topic Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum