Kuzuhara Ikkou Display

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Re: Kuzuhara Ikkou Display

Post  saruyama on Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:05 pm

There is no need to get into a "lets out japanese each other" contest here, that was not the intention, you clearly know a lot more than I do about scrolls, and are putting a tremendous amount of effort into learning about keido. The Alexander Pope comment was not directed at you as an insult,it was a call to arms to everyone that deeper study is required for everyone, myself included, in order to fully appreciate Japanese displays, if that is indeed their area of interest. I thought we were all supposed to be heading towards a similar goal.

My questioning of the scroll is due to my education, I have never trusted one single source of information that cannot be cross referenced or other examples given to back up what is being said, a problem of the internet age is information anarchy and the reliability of information. (Again, not questioning the reliability of your information there either, just a point in general) i questioned the logic and sources of everything I was taught rather than take it at face value. The origin and motivating desire behind many Japanese schools of art for example. Keido included. That is not to say that I know better, but it is just a way of coming to a conclusion that makes sense to me and to my tastes. I was actively encouraged to do this by my Japanese superiors in all aspects of study, bonsai, suiseki, display and calligraphy. The idea that japanese training is restrictive applies only to the initial period.

Regarding the scroll, while the logic behind the scroll mounting you put forward is sound and true, i personally do not like the use in this display. it is my opinion and perhaps I should have written that to clear up any misunderstanding. I have seen several much more impressive and shin no shin mounting of the same characters and so my tastes lean towards that. You said that it made no sense, but that was a little unfair, i thought that for writing at 2 am it made at least a little sense...this is an art form and subjective, I am allowed to question the suitability on taste matters, although I do admit that I should have worded it better. The tree has enough power and strength to do battle and win over a slightly stronger scroll and as there is a lack of accent, the overall character of the display, which is put forward as a shin no shin display, feels a little lacking...but that is just my opinion and I am not a keido sensei, nor even a serious student.

Apologies for rocking the boat dude.



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Re: Kuzuhara Ikkou Display

Post  Kakejiku on Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:27 pm

saruyama wrote:There is no need to get into a "lets out japanese each other" contest here, that was not the intention, you clearly know a lot more than I do about scrolls, and are putting a tremendous amount of effort into learning about keido. Apologies for rocking the boat dude.

First if my writing seemed to be attacking it was not...we all have many baby steps to take. I study Gadou...not Keidou. Seems easier for me...but the principles are very similar.

Now...without asking the calligrapher, we could make a mistake as to the reading. And I have not yet had time to research the Zengo Kichigo Dictionary to see if this phrase exists, but Love and Cloud are very similar in Sousho. So without asking the actual calligrapher we could both be making a mistake on the translation.
This is cloud.


This is Love

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Where did our love go?

Post  saruyama on Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:51 pm

OK...no harm no foul.

True enough on the possible love cloud confusion but the reading of

愛 無 心 or Love Less Heart

sounds like the B-side to a Soft Cell 7 inch from the 80's. Personally I prefer the clouds...but then today is a happy day.

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now this I like

Post  stonener on Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:55 pm

Great exchange, never tire of learning.
explanations are meaty, I devour them.
as food for the starving... Basketball
*not just barking*

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Re: Kuzuhara Ikkou Display

Post  nekotoban on Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:21 am

This is interesting I wish I could get involved more but language barrier is so thick to me but I am going to explain why the first charter read cloud雲 as possible as I can.
The first character on the second display's scroll is cloud雲. I am very sure it can not be love愛 because i had learned calligraphy over 10years. Of course, I could be wrong so here is another definition. The top part of cloud雲, there is the character of rain雨, but love愛 doesn't have rain雨.
These chinese character(kanji) such as cloud雲, snow雪, fog霧, lightning雷 etc they all have rain-crown(u-kanmuri)at their top.
However, cursive reading is REALLY difficult to read. In fact, first time I saw this I thought it was cloud雲 or snow雪 and what Saruyama translated Chinese poem is quite correct. I never know 雲無心's background. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
I would also like to say thank you to Kakejiku for giving me opportunity to participate in significant exchange. I know nothing about scrolls and gado, so you fed me a lot.
Indeed all IBC members are my bonsai wikipedia when I joined here I was completely knocked down by many‘s insatiable curiosity and passion towards bonsai. I shall hat off to all of you.
Back in the main subject, I don't know gado nor keido much, so I can only comment my taste. The first display is to me a little too quiet… it is noble but I prefer more down-to-earth. The second display is rather appropriate. I also like the display with companion plants(kusamono or soe),though gado seems it doesn't matter.
Kakejiku wrote:
了解です。使いづらいのは幢褙(どうほえ)のことです。使いやすいのは輪褙の方です。
私の欲しいのは、本紙の図柄も掛け軸の仕立ても「草の位」の掛け軸なのです。
主飾りは山野草盆栽を飾ることが多いため、一番軽い感じのもので、山野草の配軸として飾れるものを望んでいます。
これは既製品を探してもなかなかありませんし、絵描きさん(画家)に頼んでも絵を主張したきつい絵を描いてしまうので、掛け軸が強く感じて、掛け軸そのものが主飾りになってしまい、主飾りであるべき山野草盆栽が負けてしまいます。
通常の床の間飾りは掛け軸が主飾りなのでそれでも良いのですが、雅道は前に飾る盆栽が主飾りで、掛け軸はあくまでも配軸(脇役)の形をとります。
盆栽より勝ってはダメなのです。盆栽を引き立てる役目であって、掛け軸が主張してはダメなのです。
従って本紙の図柄は単的なものでなければなりません。たとえば滝の図ならば、滝の水の流れだけを描いて、周辺の岩や木の枝などは描かず素滝の図が一番適します。
そしてまる表装か文人表具が最適です。この呼び方は雅道で使っている言葉で、表具師のあいだでは違った呼び方をするのかもしれません。
普通の表具師に説明してもなかなか理解してもらえないのが実情です。
真や行の掛け軸は、希に使うことがあるものの、雅道ではほとんど「草の位」の掛け軸です。又は「草の行」ぐらいのものを文人木盆栽に使うこともあります。
そのようなわけで、絵描きさんの描いたものは、どうしても絵を主張してしまうので、私は使いたい図柄のものを写真に撮り、それをパソコンに取り込んでソフトを使って日本画調に加工し、ごく色薄くして和紙にプリントをして使用しています。
雅道の飾りを勉強してこないと理解しづらいかもしれませんが、そのようなことで、掛け軸に関しては苦労しているうちの一つです。

今、かなり大きい台風が接近してきているので飛ばされそうな盆栽を室内に取り込んだところです。被害が少なくて通り過ぎて欲しいものです。

          葛原一洪


This is my rough translation what Mr.Kuzuhara wrote:
Mr.Kuzuhara said that Rinhoe is useful than Douhoe. He wants Sou no i 草の位 style scroll including main picture as well. His problem is he seldom finds sou no i 草の位 scrolls which can harmonize with main display( sanyasou bonsai). Even he asked to scroll's painter for his display, they draw strong picture it usurps the place of main display. In gado, bonsai is main and scroll is a supporting role so scrolls picture should be simple. For example, the best drawing of a waterfall is only waterfall without rock, blanches etc. And maru hyousou or letrati hyougu (those are the words only gado use , scroll maker may use different) is most appropriate.
Therefore, He takes photos what he wants to use as scroll, put them in PC then photoshops vague colure as they look like Japanese style painting, and print them onto Japanese paper.

Kakejiku wrote:

掛け軸の写真を見せていただきましたが、左右の柱が太いため雅道では使いにくいものとなっています。
雅道では輪補仕立(りんぽしたて)の柱の細いものを使用します。
ろうほ仕立ての柱の太いものは掛け軸が強すぎて、前に飾る盆栽が負けてしまったり、また拮抗したりしてバランスが悪くなるためまず使用しません。
また、月の図は雲の色が濃すぎて重苦しので、前に飾る盆栽が負けてしまい、配軸としての役割ではなくなってしまいますし、滝の図は周囲の岩などが描いてない素滝の図が一番使いやすくて、盆栽と拮抗することがないので、そのような図柄のもがよいです。

                        葛原一洪

Underlined paragraph is:
Mr.Kuzuhara saw photos of Kakejiku's scroll but they are difficult to use for their thick right and left pillars. Gado use thin pillars of rinpo style.
Scrools have thick pillars of rouho style are too strong to accord with bonsai display in front of them, and they contend each other thus give an ill-ballanced, so gado rarely use rouho style scroll. Cloud colour on the picture of moon is so heavy and strong it defeats bonsai displayed in front of scroll and it losts a supporting role.




The only true wisdom is knowing you know nothing.
-Socrates

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Re: Kuzuhara Ikkou Display

Post  Kakejiku on Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:11 pm

Kakejiku wrote:
葛原先生へ

飾ることは難しいことを了解です。

先生は輪褙(りんほえ)表具にたいする正しいですが、表具のしおりの本で左右柱の幅は2-3分(太いとき五分)です。輪褙は草位の掛け軸です。
ろうほの表具言葉分かりませんが、先生はたぶん幢褙(どうほえ)を説明しているかもしれません。幢褙は行位の掛け軸です。しかし、輪褙と幢褙の間に草の行か行の真があります。ただいまそこの細かい件、上の本を勉強しています。

得に、月の中縁は 正絹二丁遠州(しょうけんにちょうえんしゅう)です。一メートルは一万円ぐらいかかります。
ジョナサンより

It makes me wonder why nebotokan only chose to translate certain parts of the text...which leaves certain points about the discussion not understood. This was the middle section that I replied to the underlined section. The topmost portion was Sensei's reply back to this section translated below...
Kuzuhara Sensei:
I understand that display is difficult.
Sensei is correct that Rinpou Shitate, as explained in the Book Hyougu no Shiori (page 36,37) have thin side strips for the Hashira (thin strips of cloth on the sides) are about 2-3 bun thick (one bun is 3.03 millimeters) and up to 5 bun wide when thickest. The Rinhoe is the most informal style of scroll (Sou no Kurai or Soui). (Sensei uses the term Rinpo Shitate, but I am using the more broad, technical term Rinhoe Hyougu)
I do not understand the term Rouho Shitate word that Sensei used (in the underlined initial conversation), but probably you mean a Douhoe style scroll. The Douhoe is a Semi-formal scroll style. However, within Rinhoe and Douhoe scrolls there are additional ranks such as a informal, Semi-formal scroll or Semi-formal, Formal style kakejiku.

In order to understand these details about the scrolls I am reading the above book.

Furthermore, the scroll with the moon's Chuuberi (middle cloth) was made with a Pure Silk Nichou Enshu, which costs about $120.00 for a meter.
From Jonathan

Side Note: The bonsai display books spend about 1 page on the scroll classification details. The book I mentioned discusses only about the history and design of scrolls, byoubu, fusuma etc. So some of the details are not as specific in the bonsai display books, and have at times been confusing and a little off.

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Re: Kuzuhara Ikkou Display

Post  kora on Fri Oct 05, 2012 4:38 am

I am greatly amused and entertained by the discourse between kakejiku, saruyama and nebotokan, because I suspect 90% or more of the internet bonsai club readers have no idea about all the different qualifications and rankings of Japanese scrolls-its so complex, that maybe rocket science is more understandable to me. Having said that-I now learned, the hard way, that there is so much more to lean about scrolls, than I ever imagined-as is repeatedly said: a littlee knowledge is a dangerous thing. I for one will start learning about some of the subleties of scrolls or just forget about it completely-if it becomes too obtuse. kora

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Re: Kuzuhara Ikkou Display

Post  fiona on Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:42 am

kora wrote:I am greatly amused and entertained by the discourse between kakejiku, saruyama and nebotokan, because I suspect 90% or more of the internet bonsai club readers have no idea about all the different qualifications and rankings of Japanese scrolls-its so complex, that maybe rocket science is more understandable to me. Having said that-I now learned, the hard way, that there is so much more to lean about scrolls, than I ever imagined-as is repeatedly said: a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I for one will start learning about some of the subleties of scrolls or just forget about it completely-if it becomes too obtuse. kora
I suspect you are right, but what is even more interesting is that on the basis of that very assumption I started a thread that I hoped might prompt an input from those with knowledge which us lesser mortals could read and digest and learn from. Two days, 120 views but not one single reply later, I got so disillusioned I took the thread off.

So here's a direct request to them and anyone else with advanced knowledge of this area: Please each put up a thread giving an outline of scrolls, their composition (i.e. what goes into a scroll - Japanese terminology alongside English equivalent), and an outline of their use in Japanese display. That way we can get at least three perspectives and the members can digest and analyse the knowledge.

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Re: Kuzuhara Ikkou Display

Post  Kakejiku on Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:51 am

[quote="fiona"]
kora wrote:I suspect you are right, but what is even more interesting is that on the basis of that very assumption I started a thread that I hoped might prompt an input from those with knowledge which us lesser mortals could read and digest and learn from. Two days, 120 views but not one single reply later, I got so disillusioned I took the thread off.

So here's a direct request to them and anyone else with advanced knowledge of this area: Please each put up a thread giving an outline of scrolls, their composition (i.e. what goes into a scroll - Japanese terminology alongside English equivalent), and an outline of their use in Japanese display. That way we can get at least three perspectives and the members can digest and analyse the knowledge.

First, Fiona, when I read your thread, to me it was in reference to why there was not a season in the display and how it related....and I did not see anthing about scrolls specifically in that thread.
Secondly, there are many scroll designs, and this is a field of art that has a written history going into Japan from 650 to 700 AD. And what did the Toko no Ma originally evolve into? To display the scroll as the primary piece of art...For bonsai display it should be secondary.
Here is a general article that outlines use/selection of scroll designs in bonsai display, with definitions, diagrams and pictures, based upon what I have read and had discussions with Kuzuhara Sensei.
http://www.bonsai.ie/selecting-appropriate-scrolls-for-bonsai-display/
This article was also reprinted in the Golden State Bonsai Magazine this past issue, but the Japanese terminology was taken out, so I feel the above article is a little bit easier to read and comprehend.

If others think the scroll element of design is too difficult or is not of interest that is fine...However, I see a trend in the tone and responses to posts. Some people that have thanked me in posts for writing the information provided have usually been the individuals who have taken the time to discuss with me at conventions where I vend or called me on the phone or e-mailed me to discuss about scrolls and display in general. The people that tend to criticize my posts have not spent this time speaking with me, emailing me, or asking questions...

I do not know very much about bonsai/sanyasou/suiseki...but it does not stop me from asking questions nor wanting to know more about it. I did not know my writing style sounded so condescending...that you feel like a "mere mortal". Just trying to share what others have shared to me.

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Re: Kuzuhara Ikkou Display

Post  Andre Beaurain on Fri Oct 05, 2012 12:18 pm

I think Japan is to small.

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Re: Kuzuhara Ikkou Display

Post  fiona on Fri Oct 05, 2012 1:24 pm

Kakejiku wrote: However, I see a trend in the tone and responses to posts. Some people that have thanked me in posts for writing the information provided have usually been the individuals who have taken the time to discuss with me at conventions where I vend or called me on the phone or e-mailed me to discuss about scrolls and display in general. The people that tend to criticize my posts have not spent this time speaking with me, emailing me, or asking questions...

I did not know my writing style sounded so condescending...that you feel like a "mere mortal". Just trying to share what others have shared to me.
Some of us do not have the opportunity to meet you in person - and that IMO is to our disadvantage. Please also note that the use of the words "lesser mortals" was to try to get this thread away from any negative "tone and responses" you and was merely picking up on the slightly playful tone of Kora's previous thread. My apologies are necessary as clearly that did not get across.

Esesntially I enbjoy your posts, Jonathan, and am quite happy to learn as much as I can. But it is apparent that there are other opinions too and I would welcome them also.





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as a expert on nothing

Post  stonener on Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:24 pm

I can confidently say:
LEAD, FOLLOW or GET OUT OF THE WAY...
for those who are willing to teach, disire to learn, and not just want to be heard... Basketball


Last edited by stonener on Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:36 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : bark control)

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Re: Kuzuhara Ikkou Display

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