bonsai from SEED...yes SEED!

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Re: bonsai from SEED...yes SEED!

Post  Guest on Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:46 pm

Hi Marcus...

I think Budi has some high quality trees. I wish he is still active here...Some are from very small cuttings too.

The closest you could get from seedling is from cuttings, I mean really small twig cuttings...I think I saw some from Bill V.

..Now back to my bench,,, Basketball Basketball

regards,
jun Smile

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Re: bonsai from SEED...yes SEED!

Post  my nellie on Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:50 pm

stagz wrote:ahhhh i love the discussion here... ...
Me, too!! So, let's keep on going!

Poink88 wrote:... ...If it worked, great...how about if it didn't? Decades wasted?... ...
No!!! Not at all wasted!!! On the contrary this time will have added sentiments, enjoyment, experience to the individual.
Dario, one can cultivate plants aiming to turn them into decent bonsai and not masterpiece, can cultivate them just for the joy of the experience. I know it most probably sounds obsolete but the opposite sounds absolute utilitarisme to me.

Let me post once again (I think I have already posted this elsewhere) some verses from the poem "Ithaka" by C. P. Cavafis in hope that all of you will enjoy it.

As you set out for Ithaka
hope the voyage is a long one,
full of adventure, full of discovery.
... ... ...
May there be many a summer morning when,
with what pleasure, what joy,
you come into harbors seen for the first time;
may you stop at Phoenician trading stations
to buy fine things
... ... ...
Keep Ithaka always in your mind.
Arriving there is what you are destined for.
But do not hurry the journey at all.
Better if it lasts for years,
so you are old by the time you reach the island,
wealthy with all you have gained on the way,
not expecting Ithaka to make you rich.

Ithaka gave you the marvelous journey.
Without her you would not have set out.
She has nothing left to give you now.

And if you find her poor, Ithaka won’t have fooled you.
Wise as you will have become, so full of experience,
you will have understood by then what these Ithakas mean.


Maybe it's just the eastern and western spirit... I don't know... But being an Asia minor fugitives' child I believe that it's the eastern culture which makes me to completely understand Khaimraj's point of view.

my nellie
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Re: bonsai from SEED...yes SEED!

Post  my nellie on Thu Sep 06, 2012 12:53 pm

jun wrote: ... ...Now back to my bench,,, Basketball Basketball
Watch your ball, though, young man!

my nellie
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Re: bonsai from SEED...yes SEED!

Post  Guest on Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:01 pm

my nellie wrote:
jun wrote: ... ...Now back to my bench,,, Basketball Basketball
Watch your ball, though, young man!

...I know you are watching it for me too...thanks!


regards,
jun Smile



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Re: bonsai from SEED...yes SEED!

Post  JudyB on Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:01 pm

Marcus, he's of course not on the forum, but as far as successful bonsai from seed, I can think of no better example than Dan Robinson. The Korean Black pines he has grown from seed collected in Korea are a benchmark of what can be done. I myself love the process of starting seed, but I only do short term, like for landscaping, not bonsai from my seeds.

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Re: bonsai from SEED...yes SEED!

Post  my nellie on Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:22 pm

jun wrote: ... ...I think I saw some from Bill V. ... ...
Yes, you are right and some of them (cuttings and seedlings) can be seen on Art of Bonsai

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Re: bonsai from SEED...yes SEED!

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:31 pm

By the way where is all the information to help someone grow seeds effectively and efficiently --- hmmmmm
As usual lots of opinions and some sad experiences, but no information - note the forum - hmmmm


As seeds go -

plant 100, see which ones have special qualities. Choose those. Or grow them all and the qualities might show at a later stage. Take a leap into the unknown, it's like a blank canvas and an idea.

The solution is simple ----- enjoy what you do.

I don't need to prove myself in Treedom, because I am a selling Fine Artist. If only 1 of my paintings reaches a Museum, I will be immortal, until I fall out of fashion Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

BUT What do I care, I will be dead Laughing Laughing Laughing

History decides on fFAME, present day is the stuff of notoriety.

As I typed in the Fertilizer bit, I am after the "Zuisho" of Tamarinds, it's an enjoyable project.

Also it takes about 50 years for a tree capable of producing driftwood to mature the wood. So don't try to whitewood anything under 50 years unless you want to Minwax [ woodhardener ] per sempre.
Buttonwood [ aka wish it were a Shimpaku ] suffers from this alot. On our side it's beauty is the bark, it is sensuous, but only comes with age [ to Marcus who is very correct on age with many trees ] and the leaves glow.

It is however a great tree from seed as is the Pemphis [ eh Jun, I have only 100 more years to go with my seedling - Wink Laughing Laughing Laughing ]

Later, all smiles.
Khaimraj

*Thanks L.L.B it is much and mightily appreciated.

Khaimraj Seepersad
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Re: bonsai from SEED...yes SEED!

Post  Poink88 on Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:50 pm

my nellie wrote:
Poink88 wrote:... ...If it worked, great...how about if it didn't? Decades wasted?... ...
No!!! Not at all wasted!!! On the contrary this time will have added sentiments, enjoyment, experience to the individual.
Dario, one can cultivate plants aiming to turn them into decent bonsai and not masterpiece, can cultivate them just for the joy of the experience. I know it most probably sounds obsolete but the opposite sounds absolute utilitarisme to me.
......
Maybe it's just the eastern and western spirit... I don't know... But being an Asia minor fugitives' child I believe that it's the eastern culture which makes me to completely understand Khaimraj's point of view.
I am with you on enjoying the journey. Some people keep using the "Bonsai is a marathon not a sprint" analogy and I agree...BUT...I still believe it is a race and I want to get there as fast as I can. Does that mean I am not enjoying it? I immensely do even with just my stumps but I honestly do not have the patience to start from seed. It is not for me and I want others to realize why. If they still want to do it, that is fine.

FYI, I am an Asian myself. Wink

Poink88
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Re: bonsai from SEED...yes SEED!

Post  Guest on Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:24 pm

Poink88 wrote:

FYI, I am an Asian myself. Wink




......Really? I thought you're a Batangueno...and not Asian! Razz

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Re: bonsai from SEED...yes SEED!

Post  Poink88 on Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:27 pm

jun wrote:
Poink88 wrote:

FYI, I am an Asian myself. Wink

......Really? I thought you're a Batangueno...and not Asian! Razz
Actually I am mestizo....Ilocano x Pampangueno ==> mayabang na kuripot!!! LOL lol!
(guys, sorry for the Filipino joke)

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Re: bonsai from SEED...yes SEED!

Post  Guest on Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:28 pm

Nice topic,

yes, i have some seedgrown trees, still in my garden, and some as prebonsai or training material (my birch, oak, alders...)
yes, i would recommend it for several reasons, to me its highly satisfactory
no i dont have any problems with patience, im quite a relaxed person, i simply enjoy seeing it grow in my garden.
yes, offcourse i do keep other trees as well, otherwise i would certainly go nuts from waiting, waiting, waiting Very Happy

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Re: bonsai from SEED...yes SEED!

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:33 pm

Hee heee,
Dario,

if I might tease you a little.

Why is it so important that anyone know about your not wanting to grow from seed ?

After too many responses from you,a reader might get the idea that you wished you could grow from seed. Wink Evil or Very Mad

My only real comment to you, would be, slow down and get to know your "children".

Okay folks, you do realise that you can somewhat cook the situation to get trees after 5 years by just altering the height of the finished tree. Say under 15" [38 cms]
Rule of thumb - 1" per 6" [2.5 cm to 15 cm] of height for a graceful,feminine tree. 1" to 5" [2.5 cm to 13 cm ]for a masculine looking tree or shrub.
AND if your brave enough philosophically, go for the actual ratio as seen in nature which is more like 1" to 9" [ 2.5 cm to 23 cm ] of height.

So you might only need 5 years and if you get really good at branch to trunk to root ratio's perhaps even 3 or 4 years, who knows.

Additionally, to produce the wiggly trunks, with no effort - lazy I technique seen in Bonsai Today. Re-plant the early seedling into very coarsely particled soil [ inorganic particles ], as the tree tries to grow, force it to grow through more layers of coarse soil mix.
Also you can with some trees just go for the roots in coarsely particled soil.
Have fun.
Khaimraj

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Re: bonsai from SEED...yes SEED!

Post  Poink88 on Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:48 pm

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Why is it so important that anyone know about your not wanting to grow from seed ?
It is not important to me...it might be important to the person being advised why though. Wink

Bonsai is about illusion created by exaggerated proportion...but proportion based on nature never the less. Not sure if I will call going for actual ratio as "brave".

Regarding the tease...another reason I elected not to start from seeds. Some of us have very little space. It is a premium real estate that I have to allocate to a finite number of trees/pots. If I have extra space, I might. As it stands, I am about to cull my collection as some of them start to spread wider taking 1.5 times their initial space....someday, some will need 2x. I almost dread the day. pale

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Re: bonsai from SEED...yes SEED!

Post  my nellie on Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:57 pm

Poink88 wrote: ... ...Not sure if I will call going for actual ratio as "brave"... ...
You missed "philosophically", dear Dario.

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Re: bonsai from SEED...yes SEED!

Post  JustLikeAmmy on Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:07 pm

bonsaisr wrote:
JustLikeAmmy wrote:I'm raising my Juniper indoors, which is difficult.
I bought my Juniper from a stand and it was labeled "5 year old Indoor"--and it's a decent sized mini-looking tree, maybe 6 inches. Does that seem reasonable from a seed? But considering he labeled it 'indoor' as well as potted it in terrible soil, and it was only 24 dollars.
Moral: Don't buy bonsai from a stand. Buy from a reputable nursery. For $24 you could have gotten a healthy specimen from a garden center & trained it into a bonsai.
Your juniper was started from a cutting. I doubt if it was grown from seed.
Regardless of the label, it is not an indoor tree. Put it outdoors now in the shade, gradually into the sun if you have time. Leave it outdoors until night temperatures go down into the twenties. Then find a cool place around freezing to keep it for the winter.
Iris

I know this now, you can read about it here, it's a great story. But thanks for the helpful response!

As for the thread, it's basically a good thing to have a seed just for the sake of having a tree that's 100% your own, but for the sake of the 'bonsai' hobby, starting every tree or even a few is pretty irrational, considering most of the hobby takes place in it's display/training/etc as opposed to the general upbringing of the plant?

That's what I've gotten from the posts so far! Which is good to know, I'm planting my 2nd tree just for the sake of doing it. Looking for a seed now. After I plant that one successfully, future bonsai will be cuttings/nursery for sure!

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Re: bonsai from SEED...yes SEED!

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:52 pm

Just Like Ammy,

no, Bonsai is about enjoying trees. They are memories, for no person growing Bonsai can say they never saw a tree or never touched one.

The exhibition bit is just a some form of showing off when in public.
Private displays are really akin to how you keep your house. Some of us are efficient, some tidy, some both, some slobs, some abhor empty spaces.

BUT above all Bonsai is about enjoying trees. Trees are life,slowed time and changing moments [ as in seasons/flowering or other.] Especially valuable to folk in city apartments. Thank goodness for Fluorescent bulbs eh? Wink

Dario,

when I lived in apartments, I just grew mame' and smaller trees on a 3 x 5' [ 1m x 1.5 m] shelf with sun for 4 hours maximum. I also used white and aluminium surfaces as reflectors.
With mame' one can grow a great variety and when space becomes available, Mame' can grow larger.

See Zeko Nakamura
http://www.phoenixbonsai.com/days/DaysDec.html

and

Count Matsuidaira[ scroll down the page]
http://www.kew.org/news/kew-blogs/bonsai/british-bonsai-pioneer.htm

There are books on both of these men and their Bonsai.
Amazon for Mr. Nakamura and Mr.Valavanis for Count M.
The Nakamura book is not the best - caution - the cover has the best Mame'

So you see a lot of space is not a problem,

Apologies, I value - Adaptability - much more than insisting on my own way - much more enjoyable as company when one is adaptable.

One can also follow Mr.Wikle - see Just like Ammy's post in the Discussions.
Smiles to All.
Khaimraj

* Pea size and Mame' when well done are just as satisfying as the big boys, sometimes even more. Just please leave out the cutesy figures - affraid

Khaimraj Seepersad
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Re: bonsai from SEED...yes SEED!

Post  Xavier de Lapeyre on Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:44 pm

stagz wrote: im not looking for a debate on wether i should or shouldnt... im going to regardless. i understand the time and dedication its gonna take and what the end result could or couldnt be. and dont get me wrong, i have more stock now than i can shake a stick at, so i have plenty of projects to work on while i wait for my seeds to grow grow grow. this is more intended to be an experiment to see what i can come out with it said number of years, and curious to see if people had done it and what their outcome achieved. this forum has some crotchedy old timers! haha i love a good heated debate though!

Hi Stagz,

Interesting thread you've started. Just wondering, but what do you have planned for the seeds over the next 5~10 years yourself?
Or is it just sowing the seed and coming back in 5 years to see if some thickening has happened and then decide what to do with the plants?
I've got a "ToDo list" that I drafted up, more from reading and my personal understanding of what makes up a bonsai, rather than a 20yr planted seed experience. But I would be really interested to know what plans someone else starting from a seed has in mind - if any.

*****************************

Here is my condensed "Growing Bonsai From Seed For Dummies" planning :

-2 / -1 yr : Seedy Potter - The seed that survived!
You're just wasting time here, no bonsai excitement in view, only basic horticultural skills needed to keep the seeds alive and kicking.
Stratify it, plant it, wait for it to germinate, wait for it to get strong enough for transplant, cross fingers and anything else that you can cross and hope it does not die on you.

00-03 yrs : Game of Patience - Watch it grow!
Do some basic root works: Get rid of taproot, spread the lateral roots in a desired radial shape to become future nebari.
You can forget about ramifications at this stage, because the main trunk is usually way too thin.
You need to let it grow, grow, grow and thicken, thicken, thicken.
Oh and stick it in the ground or a training pot! Smile
Keep the bonsai pot inside the closet for now.

04-12 yrs : Congrats you've got your first pre-bonsai material, worth more or less what you could have get hold of in a nursery 4 year ago or done an airlayer.
Wire the trunk, give it some basic shape and flow.
Choose your main branches, sacrificial branches, get rid of the rest.
Start on ramification, you know that thing you can start straight off when you buy a plant from nursery.
Continue to improve on root ball and nebari.
You can take out the bonsai pot from the closet now, don't forget to dust it off, but don't just add your tree into the pot yet.

06~20 yrs : Turn your prebonsai material into a bonsai masterpiece - If you can!
This is where the real bonsai work will start.
Further reduce the root-ball to get it to fit into a bonsai pot. If you've missed training the root just too bad, you'll have to start it all over.
Further promote the nebari to give an aged look to the tree. If you've missed the training from the earlier years to develop the nebari, then you're in for another series of years of training.
Get rid of sacrificial branches, if possible at the right time so as not to have to that process all over again. [ so far i've messed that part quite a bit ]
Refine ramification, this should impact on the leaf size in the end.
Use your artistic taste to get it in shape, this is where the "Create a masterpiece - If you can!" part comes into action. Like Walter Pall wrote in a reply on one of his post: "The difference between good and world class is millimeters"
Place your miniature tree into your pot, yes you can finally do it.

And you get your first bonsai after some 12~20 years.
The years are just an approximation, it could take you less but generally it will take you much more to create a bonsai from a seed.

*****************************************

I've got several trees grown from seeds [ < 4 yrs ] : casuarina, tea tree, privet, brazillian cherry, longan, malus.
Some sowed myself, others encouraged to grow in the garden then collected after 1~2 year.
I've missed several work sessions on several of them, so its basically back to square one for most of them, specially on the root work.
The girth after all those years is not that impressive, they are basically still stick in a pot material. Not even shohin worth material.
The growth rate is also kind of an unknown and random within the same seed batch, some are really quick, other slowpokes and a lot are dead.

Xavier de Lapeyre
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Re: bonsai from SEED...yes SEED!

Post  Guest on Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:01 pm

http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t10072-tre-little-trees-made-from-seed-and-seedling

Maybe this topic can inspire you....two of the apples, are from seed...I ate the apples Smile the tiny cotoneaster had just grown out of the soil in my garden, as I dug it up.

Seed is not a bad way to start...you just need to know what to do....all you do, good or bad will teach you.
Kind regards Yvonne


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Re: bonsai from SEED...yes SEED!

Post  my nellie on Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:18 pm

Yvonne Graubaek wrote: ... ...all you do, good or bad will teach you.
Exactly, Yvonne! And then it rests to us to learn the lesson or not.

my nellie
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Re: bonsai from SEED...yes SEED!

Post  Leo Schordje on Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:17 am

I love the comments here. I tangentially was referring to this thread in some of my comments in this thread:
http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t11974-pomegranate-trees-from-seed-and-growing-in-ground-vs-in-a-pot

Marcus, I really do get what you are saying. My best trees are 2 collected Ponderosa pines, both are over 125 years old. These are the two trees I look to as eventually becoming something exhibit worthy in the near future. The topic of the linked thread is a pomegranate I raised from seed, it is now 41 years old. Most sentimental, but not a terribly good bonsai even now.

So to those just starting out. I recommend a mixed collection. Some seedlings, some nursery material, some collected material and definitely save the money, and purchase good quality stock to work with. Once you have kept a few trees going for 3 or 4 years, you have the intuitive horticultural skills to tackle a tree that cost you hundreds of dollars to obtain. Bypass the 'lesser material' and save money for a couple good pieces.

But I do recommend along side the 'good' stuff, have a few pots with seedlings to work on. They have their own charms.

And every cultivar that is grafted or propagated by cuttings specifically to the bonsai trade, be it 'Zuisho' white pine, most of the cork bark pines, all the Japanese maples, etc. They all started out as seedlings somewhere, be it in the nursery, or in the wild. So who knows, maybe you will win the lottery. For every 1000 seedlings that somebody grows, one or two might be better for bonsai than the rest. The trick is to notice them and cultivate them. Someday I do hope to win the lottery, but I certainly don't expect to pay the mortgage with my future lottery winnings.

Leo Schordje
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Re: bonsai from SEED...yes SEED!

Post  edlowes on Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:28 am

I am 22 and bought 4 species of seeds last week and started the germination process yesterday. I have been growing bonsai and have 5 nice trees. No doubt growing from seed is going to be a long process but i have my other trees to keep me occupied in the mean time. I decided to grow from seed as an experiment just basicly to see what happens! and why not? it s so cheap or even free you might as well give it a go!

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Re: bonsai from SEED...yes SEED!

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