Japanese White Pine Styling

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Japanese White Pine Styling

Post  JoesBonsai on Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:02 am

Hi All

I have this White Pine that I would like to work on,firstly I decided to remove the bottom long branch.I am trying air layering , so hopefully I can manage to save the branch.
In South Africa Japanese white pines are difficult to find.The hand sketch is not so great but one can see more or less my idea.
Please give me all your ideas & advice on what I can do with this tree.





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Re: Japanese White Pine Styling

Post  Guest on Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:16 am

Hello,

in all honestly, and solely commenting on your 'virtual drawing' and picture of the real tree, in my opinion you would make it 'less' of a bonsai than it now is, if you follow that sketch as is.

Try to make it more of a real tree pls, not abstract it into a 3 store appartment building

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Re: Japanese White Pine Styling

Post  yamasuri on Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:32 pm

Well I agree with yves. Tree looks static on drawing. Trunk needs more movement [another in pot angle?] Bottom branch sacrifice is OK with me. Overal very nice and healthy tree.

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Re: Japanese White Pine Styling

Post  JimLewis on Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:40 pm

To MY eyes, the tree is too tall for its trunk size, and there appears to be no taper. My first thought would be shohin -- especially if there were a lower branch to use as a new leader.

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Re: Japanese White Pine Styling

Post  Guest on Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:48 pm

Come on guys! be nice. santa

Joe, I think you can do something out of this tree... I'll try something if you won't mind.


regards,
jun Smile

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Re: Japanese White Pine Styling

Post  JudyB on Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:51 pm

I would think that keeping the lower branch (maybe shortening it) would be a good idea. To my eye it's too tall for itself, if you make it shorter, and loose the lower branch, it'll look awkward. Leaving it on for now would be good as it'll help fatten up the lower trunk, which this tree could use... Air layers on pines are difficult, if it doesn't work, consider leaving the branch for now?

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Re: Japanese White Pine Styling

Post  JimLewis on Tue Sep 04, 2012 12:52 pm

No one WASN'T being "nice." But when you post here, you are implicitly asking for opinions. Sure he can "do something." The issue is what. No one even implied that the tree wasn't decent material.

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Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

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Re: Japanese White Pine Styling

Post  JoesBonsai on Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:21 pm

Hi All

This was the very reason why I posted, was to get all your opinions. good or bad Smile ,to me its always a learning curve Very Happy
Thank You all thumbs up
Jun
Please go ahead Very Happy Very Happy

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Re: Japanese White Pine Styling

Post  Guest on Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:50 pm




slim trunk,,, not too bad curve...literati is almost a give away hint. Just follow the trunk and tree character. Don't cut it short.



But ask somebody how to bend branches, or practice on the branches that you turn into jins later.

regards,
jun Smile

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Re: Japanese White Pine Styling

Post  JoesBonsai on Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:08 pm

Wow cheers cheers
Thank You Jun thumbs up thumbs up thumbs up

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Re: Japanese White Pine Styling

Post  my nellie on Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:12 pm

jun wrote:... ...not too bad curve... ...
Which could also be easily enhanced, in my ignorant's opinion...
Couldn't it? Pines are so flexible!

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Re: Japanese White Pine Styling

Post  xuan le on Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:35 pm

jun wrote:


slim trunk,,, not too bad curve...literati is almost a give away hint. Just follow the trunk and tree character. Don't cut it short.



But ask somebody how to bend branches, or practice on the branches that you turn into jins later.

regards,
jun Smile

Nice drawing Jun, I like it alot

Xuan

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Re: Japanese White Pine Styling

Post  marcus watts on Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:38 pm

absolutely fantastic brilliant drawing...............

now back to reality..........25 years may achieve something close.

Airlayer .....you need to be prepared to wait 4 or 5 years as it could take that long for roots to form. Hope the tree callouses over the gap if you ringbarked it so the branch is not lost - you need it to thicken the lower trunk and balance the final design. You will end up with other trees with thin trunks and no low branches while learning how to balance the energy in the white pine so I would be looking after every branch on a tree with so few already

All the tree needed initially was a couple of thick wires up the trunk and some movement added to the trunk - it would impove so much with just that. then keep it grrowing and healthy, look at google images for many hours to see that no nice bonsai look like the 3 blobs and spot a tree you like that has all the bits you one has - then you have the design.

I'll try a 10 year wait photoshop virt later Very Happy

marcus


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Re: Japanese White Pine Styling

Post  Guest on Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:28 pm

marcus watts wrote: now back to reality..........25 years may achieve something close.

I'll try a 10 year wait photoshop virt later Very Happy

marcus


agreed 100%

its nice to draw and dream, but its irrelative to do so at this stage, for this tree. We need some honesty here, only being real... Do this kind of drawing in 10 years, until it has developed enough to start thinking about a drawing like that, you're even talking about a 30 to 50you pine there if you want that drawing be reproduced in a convincing bonsai.... Focus on strong growth now, thickening and all the 'mature' features that go along with that, in 5 to 10 years start adding some refinement. Then you need some nice bark features... then... well you get the picture dont you?

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Re: Japanese White Pine Styling

Post  Guest on Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:27 am

[quote="yves71277"

in all honestly, and solely commenting on your 'virtual drawing' and picture of the real tree, in my opinion you would make it 'less' of a bonsai than it now is, if you follow that sketch as is.

Try to make it more of a real tree pls, not abstract it into a 3 store appartment building [/quote]



VISION is is one of the fundamentals of bonsai!

So what do you see this tree looks like in the future??? Do you have any idea on what to do with it?

At least Joe is practicing his visual foresight no matter how rough it is.

"Try to make it more real..." Can you show HOW to proceed with it?


"Do this kind of drawing in 10 years...."OMG affraid affraid affraid affraid - Do you think this tree will still look the same or something similar to it after 10 years...I think this tree if left untouched would be as tall as a "3 storey apartment building with trunk thicker than any literati pot Razz

>>>for now Joe can do the initial structure of the tree... like branch placement and minor bending for the future jins and main branches.

....And it is a literati. You don't need thick trunk.



As we often see here. some people are just saying something on " WHAT NOT TO DO",,,but but lacks the comment on "WHAT TO DO" or "what the tree or material would LOOK like"...and I am also being honest, that is reality check.


My sketch is based on the second picture...I traced the actual picture, follow the trunk line and existing branch...from there proceed with the "vision" of the tree in its current/near future state,,,or less than "25 years"... In 25 years it will be good for lumber harvest and no use for bonsai purposes. Razz


regards,
jun Mad




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Re: Japanese White Pine Styling

Post  bonsai*john on Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:19 am

jun wrote:
As we often see here. some people are just saying something on " WHAT NOT TO DO",,,but but lacks the comment on "WHAT TO DO"

totally agree with jun.. I think joe wants to know what he can do with styling of the tree "now" and not 10 or even 25 years from now. lets say we all agreed with it being a literati bonsai, i think we can all help to advice on what he can do now so that in the near or far future it will look similar or even close to what jun have drawn..
thats just my opinion.. hehe

john


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Re: Japanese White Pine Styling

Post  Treedwarfer on Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:04 am

bonsai*john wrote:I think joe wants to know what he can do with styling of the tree "now" and not 10 or even 25 years from now.

What Joe can do now, as you say, is take the first step on a 10 or 20 year journey. Jun's drawing shows him where he should go. Joe can begin to shape the branches used in Jun's design tomorrow. He can pinch candles each spring and prune branches in autumn to create density and character. In a few years, when the trunk is thicker at the base, he can remove the lower unused branches and make the jins and shari. He has time to learn all these techniques, and if there is none to show him the way his experience will be his teacher. Just like it was with us old-uns.

Joe, if you can draw well, it can help to draw your design first. If you don't draw so well, it's not a good idea because your inner vision of the tree is limited by your ability to put it on paper. Get the idea set firmly in your mind first, then find pictures of similar trees, make notes - any reminders that will help you keep that image in your head. Take photographs every so often and draw over them. Try printing out several copies of the photograph and cutting out bits of foliage to make a montage of the future shape - just like us old-uns did before photoshop.

And don't be put off by the prospect of a ten year project, that's not a long time in bonsai. Think more of how it would feel to hold that ancient pine in your hand and know that you have spent thirty or more years making it a thing of beauty.


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Re: Japanese White Pine Styling

Post  JoesBonsai on Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:39 am

Hi Everyone

Thank You All for the comments cheers cheers The very reason why I posted here was to get has many ideas as possible on what to do with this tree.
I know that it will take a long time to get this tree to be a Bonsai, I just wanted to know the right track to follow,Thank You Jun
for the picture it really gives me a good indication Very Happy Very Happy The photo bellow was the idea I was trying to achieve.Sorry for my hand drawing (lesson learned) Shocked
I have done lots of wiring and bending of branches on my bonsai collection ,the reason I am pretty cautious affraid with this one is that Pines are very
hard to find in this part of the world especially Japanese. Evil or Very Mad

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Re: Japanese White Pine Styling

Post  Guest on Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:49 am

Treedwarfer wrote:
bonsai*john wrote:I think joe wants to know what he can do with styling of the tree "now" and not 10 or even 25 years from now.

What Joe can do now, as you say, is take the first step on a 10 or 20 year journey. Jun's drawing shows him where he should go. Joe can begin to shape the branches used in Jun's design tomorrow. He can pinch candles each spring and prune branches in autumn to create density and character. In a few years, when the trunk is thicker at the base, he can remove the lower unused branches and make the jins and shari. He has time to learn all these techniques, and if there is none to show him the way his experience will be his teacher. Just like it was with us old-uns.

Joe, if you can draw well, it can help to draw your design first. If you don't draw so well, it's not a good idea because your inner vision of the tree is limited by your ability to put it on paper. Get the idea set firmly in your mind first, then find pictures of similar trees, make notes - any reminders that will help you keep that image in your head. Take photographs every so often and draw over them. Try printing out several copies of the photograph and cutting out bits of foliage to make a montage of the future shape - just like us old-uns did before photoshop.

And don't be put off by the prospect of a ten year project, that's not a long time in bonsai. Think more of how it would feel to hold that ancient pine in your hand and know that you have spent thirty or more years making it a thing of beauty.



Yes,This makes sense. Thanks!

even a 100 year program is even better. but at this stage where the tree is not a stick or seedling anymore , training can be started.

regards,
jun Smile

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Re: Japanese White Pine Styling

Post  Guest on Thu Sep 06, 2012 1:56 pm

jun wrote: VISION is is one of the fundamentals of bonsai!

So what do you see this tree looks like in the future??? Do you have any idea on what to do with it?

At least Joe is practicing his visual foresight no matter how rough it is.

"Try to make it more real..." Can you show HOW to proceed with it?


"Do this kind of drawing in 10 years...."OMG affraid affraid affraid affraid - Do you think this tree will still look the same or something similar to it after 10 years...I think this tree if left untouched would be as tall as a "3 storey apartment building with trunk thicker than any literati pot Razz

>>>for now Joe can do the initial structure of the tree... like branch placement and minor bending for the future jins and main branches.

....And it is a literati. You don't need thick trunk.



As we often see here. some people are just saying something on " WHAT NOT TO DO",,,but but lacks the comment on "WHAT TO DO" or "what the tree or material would LOOK like"...and I am also being honest, that is reality check.


whats the fuss? where is the shock? you dont need vision on this tree... a faint idea is enough for now... less is more.

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Re: Japanese White Pine Styling

Post  Guest on Thu Sep 06, 2012 2:09 pm

JoesBonsai wrote:Hi Everyone

Thank You All for the comments cheers cheers The very reason why I posted here was to get has many ideas as possible on what to do with this tree.
I know that it will take a long time to get this tree to be a Bonsai, I just wanted to know the right track to follow,Thank You Jun
for the picture it really gives me a good indication Very Happy Very Happy The photo bellow was the idea I was trying to achieve.Sorry for my hand drawing (lesson learned) Shocked
I have done lots of wiring and bending of branches on my bonsai collection ,the reason I am pretty cautious affraid with this one is that Pines are very
hard to find in this part of the world especially Japanese. Evil or Very Mad

Well, if that pine on this picture really was your goal with your first drawing, then you need drawing lessons Very Happy Very Happy
Indeed, a tree like this would be a good final goal. But correct me if i'm wrong, this tree does have a thicker trunk, has bark, has this and that, all the things i said. Its good to have a plan, but being sober/honest/humble about it truly brings you further and go about it more relaxed, working with the tree and maybe with its possibilities it could bring if you let it grow/ripen some more years before you go think about a final design.

That is MY future plan JUN for this tree, no more no less

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Re: Japanese White Pine Styling

Post  Guest on Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:37 pm

Sorry guys can't help it! hehehe Razz Razz Evil or Very Mad santa

This may help... A series/ stages of the future vision on what to do with a tree if you have no plan or vision... Just design it after ten years or more.





regards,
jun pirat


..And oh! the trunk movement was based on the current form of the tree too as shown in Joe's pictures rendeer ...

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Re: Japanese White Pine Styling

Post  Guest on Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:11 pm

jun wrote:Sorry guys can't help it! hehehe Razz Razz Evil or Very Mad santa

This may help... A series/ stages of the future vision on what to do with a tree if you have no plan or vision... Just design it after ten years or more.





regards,
jun pirat


..And oh! the trunk movement was based on the current form of the tree too as shown in Joe's pictures rendeer ...

what the use of commenting... children will always find their playground

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Re: Japanese White Pine Styling

Post  Rick36 on Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:40 pm

Well, I thought it was amusing - back to the playground!!

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Re: Japanese White Pine Styling

Post  Guest on Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:42 pm

Rick36 wrote:Well, I thought it was amusing - back to the playground!!

offcourse, why not? i'm not hurt, and i suspect Jun is a grownup too...

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Re: Japanese White Pine Styling

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