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A collected Rocky Mountain Juniper

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lordy
Andrew Legg
marcus watts
Brian Van Fleet
stagz
dick benbow
Fore
JudyB
Jesse McMahon
Dave Murphy
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Post  stagz Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:39 am

ryan is the master of RM junipers. i love the smell of them, especially when carving
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Post  Fore Thu Oct 18, 2012 6:55 pm

Dave, given your experience. May I ask a question? Peter Warren and I gave my RMJ it's first styling in Aug. All the tips are growing, but I'm loosing a few small branches, weaker interior branches w. juvenile foliage. No evidence of disease at all. Is it normal to loose some of these kind of weaker branches after it's first styling...with a lot of major bending taken place? Just not sure I should be spraying for something or not...hard to say for me given it's growing at all the tips.
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Post  Dave Murphy Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:12 pm

I suppose any kind of styling during the heat of the summer could lead to some injury and subsequent die back, and the more aggressive the bending the greater the risk. My tree here has unfortunately experienced a fair bit of die back since I pruned back extensions in late August. It was still quite warm here- upper 80's to low 90's each afternoon, but I thought it was ok. Nothing else has changed so I assume it was the (ill-timed?) pruning. The fact that your tree is growing is good, though, so I wouldn't worry too much.

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Post  Brian Van Fleet Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:11 pm

Wow Dave, looking great, really advanced a lot this year.
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Post  marcus watts Thu Oct 18, 2012 9:46 pm

Hi

wiring and styling definitely leads to older inner growth dropping off quicker than it did before working on many juniper species. The tip growth remains ok and you just need to feed well and let the tree recover - then it sends out inner buds in branch forks etc - these are the future pads once they strengthen and you can slowly cut back to them. The only time to worry with a juniper is when tip growth starts browning and dropping off

This i think is the best reason to work on a tree once and do it well, then let the tree rest and recover for a few years.

cheers Marcus
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Post  Dave Murphy Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:32 pm

Hey, Brian. Yes, this tree has come a fair way this year. Unfortunately, some of the small branches I lost after the August pruning were mainly in the weaker right side of the tree, so...maybe a small step backwards, as well.

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Post  Dave Murphy Thu Oct 18, 2012 11:34 pm

Hi, Marcus. Thank you for your comments, and I couldn't agree more with them.

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Post  Fore Fri Oct 19, 2012 5:34 am

Dave, Thanks for sharing your tree and experience. It was reassuring Wink After the styling, I had it in full sun and started noticing some interior browning. Left it there another couple wks with about the same. So I've moved it to a mostly shaded area for now. Seems to like it there so far.
And I am happy about all the new growth, knowing I didn't kill it lol I've got a long way to go, but you've shown what can be accomplished in 'just' 5 yrs. ThumbsUp

And Marcus, Thank You also for chipping in with some excellent information...as usual Wink Just glad it wasn't anything serious, and also learned what to expect in the future.

And I'm definitely going to let it rest for at least 2 yrs and keep it thriving and green, and keep a watchful eye on the wiring as to avoid marking. Seems simple enough Very Happy
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Post  Dave Murphy Sat May 24, 2014 2:16 am

I thought I'd add a picture here showing the tree at the Atlanta Bonsai Society spring show last week a the Atlanta Botanical Gardens.  The tree continues to grow well, enjoying the southern climes of Georgia, and becomes more refined with each year.
A collected Rocky Mountain Juniper - Page 2 Dsc_0015

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Post  Andrew Legg Mon Jun 09, 2014 7:13 am

Hi Dave,

Great job mate. The tree has come a long way since being owned by yourself. My question is what's behind all that deadwood? For me, it looks like a lovelys green top growing on a dead stem. Is it possible to rotate the front a bit to show some more of the live vein? Just a thought. Cool tree.

Cheers,

Andrew

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Post  lordy Wed Jun 11, 2014 6:30 pm

Man, Dave that thing is HUGE. Look how much bigger it is than that lady in the blue pants standing under it! Laughing 
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Post  Dave Murphy Wed Jun 11, 2014 6:43 pm

Andrew Legg wrote:Hi Dave,

Great job mate. The tree has come a long way since being owned by yourself.  My question is what's behind all that deadwood? For me, it looks like a lovelys green top growing on a dead stem. Is it possible to rotate the front a bit to show some more of the live vein? Just a thought. Cool tree.

Cheers,

Andrew
Thanks Andrew. The picture was taken a few degrees left of spot on front. The live vein is very visible from there, and I did not peel the more mature bark down to the brighter reddish new bark and oil it Embarassed . You can see from earlier photos how well the live vein pops when I do.

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Post  Dave Murphy Wed Jun 11, 2014 6:46 pm

lordy wrote:Man, Dave that thing is HUGE.  Look how much bigger it is than that lady in the blue pants standing under it! Laughing 

Yes, very big. I did need help to put it on the stand, but I usually move this one around by myself Suspect Laughing .

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Post  Andrew Legg Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:15 am

Dave Murphy wrote:
Thanks Andrew.  The picture was taken a few degrees left of spot on front.  The live vein is very visible from there, and I did not peel the more mature bark down to the brighter reddish new bark and oil it Embarassed .  You can see from earlier photos how well the live vein pops when I do.

Hi Dave.

In my mind there's something to be said for not peeling and polishing junipers too. Makes them look a bit plasticy in my mind, but hey, different strokes for different folks right.

Cheers,

Andrew

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Post  YukiShiro Tue Aug 12, 2014 1:18 pm

Well, I guess if you have a juni without deadwood, not pealing the bark would make sense. But if a lot of deadwood it would make sense to contrast the live vein from the deadwood by peeling and polishing that live vein Smile
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Post  Fore Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:37 pm

With collected trees/yamadori, you must remove bark to look for borers. Been cleaning quite a bit of l. veins recently and just found my first borer this weekend. If you don't look, it might just kill you tree.
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Post  Vance Wood Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:59 am

I really like the tree but I would like to ask a question? What technique are you using to tighten up the foliage and create clouds or masses?
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Post  Dave Murphy Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:18 am

Vance Wood wrote:I really like the tree but I would like to ask a question?  What technique are you using to tighten up the foliage and create clouds or masses?  

Wiring and cutting back extensions...no pinching. For the first time in over 4 years, the majority of the foliage is moving toward the adult scale type. I have no doubt that if I started pinching the foliage tips, it would all shortly revert to juvenile foliage.

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Post  Barry Grayson Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:40 pm

Dave,
I really enjoyed reading the history of your exquisite RMJ and the contribution to it made by Ryan Neil. I have two questions:
1) What is the difference between "cutting back extensions" and "pinching"
2) What and how frequently are you feeding your RMJ?
Barry Grayson
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Post  Dave Murphy Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:21 pm

Thanks Barry. In my mind, pinching is a term that describes the removal, by fingers, of the growing tips of the juniper foliage. Cutting back extensions refers to the removal, with pruning shears, of stronger growth that has extended beyond the silhouette of the pad. These extensions tend to be, at least on this tree, more then several inches long when removed, and more often then not, the cut is made into lignified, woody tissue.

As far as fertilizing, I give a full strength shot of miracle gro liquid and fish emulsion every week or two during our fairly long growing season. This one will be getting less fertilizer as it becomes more refined.

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Post  Vance Wood Wed Aug 20, 2014 1:53 pm

Dave Murphy wrote:Thanks Barry.  In my mind, pinching is a term that describes the removal, by fingers, of the growing tips of the juniper foliage.  Cutting back extensions refers to the removal, with pruning shears, of stronger growth that has extended beyond the silhouette of the pad.  These extensions tend to be, at least on this tree, more then several inches long when removed, and more often then not, the cut is made into lignified, woody tissue.

As far as fertilizing, I give a full strength shot of miracle gro liquid and fish emulsion every week or two during our fairly long growing season.  This one will be getting less fertilizer as it becomes more refined.

Here is the problem I am having with this debate or discussion and is probably bassed in semantics.  We need to define what we mean.  I have been growing Junipers of more years than some of you have been breathing air.  I have a method of pinching, as we used to call it, that is designed to develop the cloud like foliage pads that many covet in Juniper bonsai.  I have never seen or felt that what I do weakens or endangers a tree in the least and I do not get brown ends from the process as some proponents of your method seem to claim.  You answered Barry's post starting with the following:  Cutting back extensions refers to the removal, with pruning shears, of stronger growth that has extended beyond the silhouette of the pad.    Does this mean that you cut back everything that has grown out, even a little bit, beyond the shape you are trying to maintain?  OR--- do you wait till they have extended as you describe here:   These extensions tend to be, at least on this tree, more then several inches long when removed, and more often then not, the cut is made into lignified, woody tissue.

If it is so, as you have described, why do you wait till a growth beyond the silhouette  advances to "more than several inches" before you deal with it.  Assuming that this is the crux of this method, what do you do with growth that is only a couple of milimeters?  The growth we used to, and God forgive me, PINCH.  How do you deal with that or do you have to wait till it progresses  to "more than several inches"?  The Shimpaku I use for my Avatar has been pinched since 1994 and it still seems to look OK.  Just because some Japanese master or some student of a Japanese Master says this or says that does not necessarily mean it should be accepted without question.  I'm really sorry and I do not wish to stir up a fuss but I have not been able to get a straight answer about this, and most of the Junipers I have seen by the proponents of this method look like ten year old boys in need of a hair cut. Sorry
Vance Wood
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Post  Dave Murphy Wed Aug 20, 2014 2:24 pm

Vance, honestly, do what works for you. I've described in detail how I've styled and developed this tree. This is a Rocky Mountain Juniper, probably over 500 years old and maybe closer to 1000 years old, now living just north of Atlanta, GA. It reverts to 100% juvenile foliage every time I repot it or wire it heavily. After 3 years of pruning the foliage as I've described, the foliage is swinging back to mostly scale foliage, meaning the technique is working for me, the tree is healthy, AND I like the way the foliage looks on this particular tree. For me, the conversation begins and ends there.

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Post  Vance Wood Wed Aug 20, 2014 2:40 pm

Dave Murphy wrote:Vance, honestly, do what works for you.  I've described in detail how I've styled and developed this tree.  This is a Rocky Mountain Juniper, probably over 500 years old and maybe closer to 1000 years old, now living just north of Atlanta, GA.  It reverts to 100% juvenile foliage every time I repot it or wire it heavily.  After 3 years of pruning the foliage as I've described, the foliage is swinging back to mostly scale foliage, meaning the technique is working for me, the tree is healthy, AND I like the way the foliage looks on this particular tree.  For me, the conversation begins and ends there.  

I am glad, in sincerely like the tree and I sincerely like you and would not cause you grief or anger in my direction.  But I have to keep asking because I do not know.   Having someone tell me that they have it written on their blog, or they have told me already, or both does not fly.  I feel like I am being asked to buy the King's New Clothes.  If your description of what you do is summed up in the previous post than I think we have a problem.  You still have not described what you do with the little stuff? My assumption from reading your post was that you allow the new growth to advance to two or three inches beyond your intended silhouette before you deal with it?  Then you cut it back to lignified wood, below your intended silhouette?  This means you have to constantly regrow everything all the time and never really reach a defined profile? This does not make sense?  The way Junipers grow you are constantly fighting a stylistic battle you can't really win. When I thin my pads, usually once a year I cut back to lignified wood but I don't wait tlll the tree grows out of profile by two or three inches before taking care of the problem.  

I know some of "you guys" describe the pinching method as ripping off  and tearing the new growth.   Well that is not true at all and anyone who approaches a Juniper in this way deserves the brown ends and the weakened tree, they would be better served if they had taken a pair of shrub shears or an electrical hedge clipper and had a go at the tree.
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Post  Dave Murphy Wed Aug 20, 2014 4:00 pm

I'll preface this post by saying that I am not a student of Boon or Ryan Neil, though I spend time with Rodney Clemons, and he has never told me one way or the other how to prune this tree. He did judge it at the ABS annual show and had nothing to say, good or bad, about the canopy or foliage. I read about this technique years ago, listened to Ryan talk about it during a club meeting years ago, it made sense to me, so it's become the primary technique I'm using with my junipers. As to your question about the small stuff, I don't do anything to it unless I'm cleaning the tree up to be shown. Then I'll trim the small stuff back to fit within the silhouette, and this is usually done within several days of the event. I suppose if I was a student of Boon or Ryan, they might have different advice on technique or timing. The tree is a bit unkempt most of the time, but it's healthy, which is most important. I've lost old collected trees before...losing this one would gut me.

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Post  JimLewis Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:32 pm

I think what this debate boils down to is that there's more than one way to skin a cat.
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