time for more galleries please

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Re: time for more galleries please

Post  fiona on Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:01 pm

leatherback wrote:...To be honest: I would say it is quite arrogant to say, without any other arguments: I am right, because I grew and wired hundreds of trees of this species and they survived. And you are wrong because you have not done this. ... Don't judge a book by its covers. Accept that everyone carries experience and knowledge. And until we ask for a full resume and someone who can vouch for them, you will not know what the background of the poster is. You ask for humility in other posters? You get what you give.

Leatherback makes a very fair point, and to be honest, one of the reasons for the Personal Space: Introductions forum was precisely so we could get an idea of people's experiences within bonsai and in related fields so that we didn't make these value judgements based on "years in bonsai" alone. For example, I don't know how many trees Nina has, but even if she had absolutely none I would still defer to her knowledge and expertise of plant diseases. There is a vast difference between those posters who give their opinion on the basis of expertise and experience and those who, as Jun says, have read something on wikipedia and consider themselves an expert. But as we live in a free society which allows everyone the right to comment, the rest of us just have to try our best to work out which is which and be selective in what we take on as advice.

However, before this thread gets blown way off course, let's just pause for a moment to look back at why we have these additional forums now as I think their actual purpose has got lost along the way:

The original consultation earlier in the year arose from a request to redress the balance between encouraging beginners and retaining interest among the more advanced bonsai-ists as it had become clear that the gap there was widening. It was agreed (rightly in my own opinion) that IBC should not be solely an elitist forum but a place where people could seek advice, and learn and grow (in all senses). We also agreed that putting in forum boards with names like Beginners was too fraught with difficulties to be manageable. The new forums of Progressions/Advanced Techniques and Top Threads were put in place to give that essence of "teaching" - where members could see things they could learn from. I will confess that I have been quite hard regarding what has gone in the Progressions forum precisely to retain that teaching element. But, that's not to say only top quality trees can go in there: if someone has a progression sequence showing an average bit of nursery material that they have developed to a good end result then that is is as valid as someone's work on a top quality imported bit of material as others will be able to learn from it. The Discussion and Questions forum will always carry the more routine day-to-day bonsai items.

The old ethos of the experienced helping the inexperienced was good, but I suspect a little rose-tinted on occasion. Yes we have had our share of "big names" but I am not convinced they were always the driving forces of this forum. I am more concerned that we seem to have lost the input from those quieter, humbler but very educational/inspirational members such as Will, Hans and John Geanangel. They were the guys who made this forum for me and they were the guys who were happy to give and not expect anything in return. And although it is merely conjecture, I have a horrible suspicion that those guys and others like them have got a little fed up with the lack of gratitude and/or the way some posters used their threads for their own ends whether that be to boost their own egos or to shoot barbs - personal or artistic - at them. I hope I am wrong in that.

I personally (though my opinion carries no more weight than others') would like IBC to offer a good mix of assisting beginners and allowing space for more experienced bonsai folk including experts. That we have managed to get where we are without the nonsense I see on other forums (one of which ticks the boxes of just about every ism under the sun Very Happy ) is to our credit. To return to the start point in all this of the Galleries forum, it is there for people to use as they wish. That's what the old Gallery was, so while it would be nice to think people will put in their top trees, that is not at all a "rule".

Tell you what will be interesting though; to look back in a few years time at what you put into the Gallery now and compare it to the trees you are creating further down the line. In fact, I may take a trawl through my archives and see if I have pics of my first trees and put them up and see just how far I have come on. To see how people have progressed in their own work would be to me a major inspiration.


Anyway. That's surely about enough on this topic now.


Last edited by fiona on Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:09 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: time for more galleries please

Post  Poink88 on Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:02 pm

leatherback wrote:I agree with your observation. It is however sometimes difficult to discuss the merits of ideas when people get inflamed if someone contradicts them. I would prefer to just talk content and now about ego sizes.
True. Sadly, it seems the "bonsai masters" felt they should be elevated to a higher level on everything when they themselves are "newbies" in certain fields.

Discussion is healthy...truth and good point float while BS will sink. It is a great learning tool. It amazes me how "masters" get intimidated by a newbie...they shouldn't be. They don't even have to argue...their statements (right or wrong) carry more weight here to begin with. We all learn differently...some by listening, observing, reading, asking questions, discussing, doing, or any of combination of these. Honestly, I retain more knowledge from the discussions that answers the why and how.

The thing is, the masters get tired (understandably) answering the same question thousand of times too. I for one would love to hear a response from a newbie than nothing at all.

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Re: time for more galleries please

Post  fiona on Mon Sep 24, 2012 12:06 pm

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:... I come from the once British West Indies and had a very stern/strict English schooling where Mrs.B would correct you with a withering stare or some very sharp words. Laughing
A withering stare or some very sharp words? Man you had it easy! We had wooden rulers across the back of the knuckles and/or a precision-aimed blackboard eraser on the head. Not to mention the dreaded lochgelly (go google that or the word "tawse" and see how tough Scottish schooling was. Very Happy )

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Re: time for more galleries please

Post  MikeG on Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:19 pm

Hi all.
As a newbie (only 3 years into bonsai) I've learned ALOT form this site. The knowledgeable and artistic folks here are an inspiration.
But I have definitely been noticing a change recently. Too much arguing, and too many people who just like the sound of their own voices. I find myself having to sift through a lot of bs to find worthwhile information from the more experienced artists.
I personally will listen to the person with years of experience and proven talent. Just like at work. I am bricklayer that specializes on high-rises. My foreman who immigrated here from Italy in the 50's with a 4th grade education, knows more in his pinky finger then any of the puffed up university educated engineers and architects who come along and try to tell him how to do his job, even though they've never spent more then an hour at a time actually on a construction site.
Thats why I normally stay quiet on this site except to comment on a tree and ask a newb question. I do like hearing all kinds of different views from different folks, and deciding myself wich advice pertains to my specific situation. But I always give more credit to those who have earned it with years of trial and error and the beautiful works of art to show that it works for them.
That being said, I'd like to thank all the hardworking folks that keep this site up and running. It is greatly appreciated.

Mike

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Re: time for more galleries please

Post  my nellie on Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:20 pm

fiona wrote:... ...the rest of us just have to try our best to work out which is which and be selective in what we take on as advice.
marcus watts is the original poster of this interesting thread and I would like to emphasize that I have read him enough times writing/advising that in order to weigh the validity of one’s suggestion/tips/”expertise” one have to check on the adviser through means of his work. The same stands for his profile, as Fiona is suggesting.

fiona wrote:... ...I am more concerned that we seem to have lost the input from those quieter, humbler but very educational/inspirational members such as Will, Hans and John Geanangel. They were the guys who made this forum for me and they were the guys who were happy to give and not expect anything in return.
I have a horrible suspicion that those guys and others like them have got a little fed up with the lack of gratitude
This is also my concern if I may add to your comment, Fiona. My concern and my regret because I have been helped by such generous people and I am thankful for this and I do appreciate the help that has been so kindly offered to me.
Your suspicion is indeed horrible but I have to admit that I often miss to read a phrase like “thank you” as a bottom line….




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Re: time for more galleries please

Post  Sakaki on Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:31 pm

Hi all,

Yesterday, my son (10 y.o.) asked for my help to solve a calculus problem. I recommended him a short method for solution of the problem, but he simply refused to use that method, and said "I never heard such method from my teacher" although my method was simplier & shorter than what was instructed by his teacher. Very Happy
Then I rechecked the method and formula recommended by his teacher and, I came to a conclusion that his way is more easy to understand by a child at that age Smile hahaha
(though mine is correct and shorter way) Very Happy

That is to say:
- Newbies always need simple answers that they can understand Smile
- And experts always want to give best recommendation based on their experiences they gained in due course Smile

And this causes a simple confliction and confusion.
I, as a newbie, know that I should always listen carefully to and should follow the recommendations by experienced masters. However, it is true that newbies are not so patient and submissive most of the time Smile
And the impatience and contumacy may sometimes be insufferable by teachers... this is home truth.

I thank all those experienced people here in IBC for bearing with me Smile

Taner

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Re: time for more galleries please

Post  fiona on Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:36 pm

Mike, Alexandra and Taner - ThumbsUp ThumbsUp ThumbsUp

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Re: time for more galleries please

Post  Poink88 on Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:19 pm

fiona wrote:I am more concerned that we seem to have lost the input from those quieter, humbler but very educational/inspirational members such as Will, Hans and John Geanangel. They were the guys who made this forum for me and they were the guys who were happy to give and not expect anything in return. And although it is merely conjecture, I have a horrible suspicion that those guys and others like them have got a little fed up with the lack of gratitude and/or the way some posters used their threads for their own ends whether that be to boost their own egos or to shoot barbs - personal or artistic - at them. I hope I am wrong in that.
Well John thinks I am "...just one more in a long line of idiots that have posted on this forum..." (his own word to me via PM). All because I disagreed with his idea (similar to Jun's). Based on this, I very likely caused him to leave.

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Re: time for more galleries please

Post  fiona on Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:30 pm

And I believe that when we start spilling the contents of PMs then this thread is serving no real purpose any more.

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Re: time for more galleries please

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