Where to purchase Fertilizer?

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Re: Where to purchase Fertilizer?

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:52 pm

Hey Bro,

as usual really beautiful work!!!!!

Teasing you -> Twisted Evil I can't wait to see what you can do from seed - Evil or Very Mad

Will they have the personality of the collected trees----challenge

As to Tamarinds, I will allow my own to flower for as long as it wants to, but fruit is decorative,and I only allow 2 to say 5 to develop.
My largest tamarind is a single pod/seed type.
Flowers can be reddish or yellowish,as I am sure you see on your trees.

Actually,you should be able to grow Bonsai well on cow manure tea,provided you know how to compost.
Rodale,Rodale,Rodale..........................................
Later.
Khaimraj

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Re: Where to purchase Fertilizer?

Post  Guest on Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:54 pm

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Hey Bro,

as usual really beautiful work!!!!!

Teasing you -> Twisted Evil I can't wait to see what you can do from seed - Evil or Very Mad

Will they have the personality of the collected trees----challenge


Thanks Bro!

The tamarind above is from seed...make a new topic/thread like "Who cares about trees from seeds?" or "What is good about bonsai from seeds" and I will respond more in there, As I think I will be hijacking this thread if I do it in here.

regards,
jun Smile

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Re: Where to purchase Fertilizer?

Post  Tim Priest on Sun Sep 02, 2012 11:30 pm

Dallas Bonsai Sells it
drgonzo wrote:Plant science and nutrition is still an evolving field of study, for instance the role of Potassium in plant culture is still not clearly understood. I would always be suspicious of any product that doesn't clearly list it's ingredients, but anecdotal evidence can be quite convincing.

Tim.
if by National Arboretum, you mean National Bonsai & Penjing Museum they use Dyna grow. Jack seemed to be very happy with the product and uses it on his personal collection at home as well. I'm not sure if he supplements with HB 101.

If you Mean Bill V. We'd have to have him pop in and tell us.

Best
-Jay
PS where can this be bought? I might want to give it a go if it's not too pricey.

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Re: Where to purchase Fertilizer?

Post  Leo Schordje on Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:17 pm

I too am uncertain of the components of HB101. BUT, other products, especially those containing various humic acids, these have been shown to have a positive effect, but the use recomended is only once every 4 to 8 weeks, not as a continuous feed. I believe HB101 is in this category. A root growth cycle is stimulated by the humic acid containing products, over doing the humic acid does not show a benefit. These products would include some of the Kelp extracts along with other products with Humic acid labelings. I suspect the benefit of Superthrive and HB101 is from triggering the same responses as that the humic acid triggers. Dosing too frequently with the humic acid supplements, may be somewhat harmful, or at its best be a waste of money. But the once every 4 to 8 weeks does have a documented positive benefit. All comments in this paragraph are from the "Vague but True" portion of my memory, so I could be mis-remembering. If others know better, please comment.

In the not so vague category, I do buy my fertilizers from
https://www.firstrays.com/
they specialize in orchids, and orchid growing supplies. The 'Free Info' section has very useful articles, well worth a look.

What orchids have in common with bonsai is that are grown in fairly inert synthetic substrates. All nutrients need to be supplied by the grower. I highly recommend the K-Lite MSU fertilizer series. Especially if you are using a continuous feeding program. First Rays also carries a good brand of Kelp extract and a complete line up of Dyna-Grow products. Check out the site. The MSU series of fertilizers have all the macro and micro nutrients a plant in a synthetic soil would need. It was developed for the bedding plant industry and then modified for orchids. K-Lite series addresses the potassium issue tangentially referred to earlier in this post.

I went over the Walter Palls article http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t3328-walter-pall-blog-post and if you follow his technique, for ALL the components, watering, substrate and fertilizer, it is a very good regime and will work.

I myself use a technique that most would consider continuous feeding. I am set up so that it is easy for me to do. I use the MSU formulations outlined on First Ray's Free Info pages, and I am getting very good health for my trees. I don't have Walter Pall's success, but I know I have several areas I need to correct in my horticulture to improve my growing. (I'm not talking about artistic talent, I am not artistic, firewood looks more artistic than my trees ) but I do know a little about horticulture.

Check out First Rays if you are looking for fertilizers.

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Re: Where to purchase Fertilizer?

Post  FrankP999 on Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:35 pm

Leo,
I also use fertilizer and kelp from FirstRays. The kelp has done really superb on my orchids - it makes the roots grow like crazy. I use their MSU fertilizer for RO water so I get extra CA and MG.

I am trying the kelp on some japanese maples that I bought this year that are weak. So far, they are responding well.

Leo, If I might ask, what is your technique that you mention -"most would consider continuous"?

One item on Ray's MSU. It is a powered product that is not homogeneous. You can see different size and color particles. I was concerned about getting a consistent dilution so I dissolved two pounds of MSU fertilizer in two gallons of water. Then I further dilute that concentrate at time of use by mixing 1 oz of the concentrate per gallon. This gives me 125 PPM Nitrogen.


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Re: Where to purchase Fertilizer?

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:59 pm

Hmm, just general comments.

[1] It takes about 3 to 5 years actively looking after a tree to gain the experience needed to keep it growing well.

[2] Artificial soils are nothing new, and most of the time the idea is to simply understand the principles behind the situation.This allows one to obtain locally, what is needed to make a usable soil.

[3] If you truly appreciate and understand what is meant by -------- we grow Bonsai for BEAUTY and not produce, or SIZE.
Any soil capable for draining well for a long period and holding some of the fertilizer needed by the plant from watering to watering, will handle a good general fertilizer.
If you go totally artificial ------ it is just hydroponics - the old rage of the late 70's early 80's.

[4] See- Rodale - for the down to earth [ organic /wholistic/magical/yadda,yadda] idea behind organic growing.

[5] As a perhaps - with an old tree, heavily root bound in same size inorganic particles, might not the organic part decay away completely and could you then just apply a layer of organic material, that could filter down and back into the root mass nearest the trunk of the tree ??????

There will always be something new, and somehow the folks from before the nineteenth century grew Bonsai/Penjing well---Amazing!!!!!
Later.
Khaimraj

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Re: Where to purchase Fertilizer?

Post  63pmp on Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:20 am

One of the least understood aspects of plant growth is the impact of microbial activity on plants. It has been estimated that soil bacteria and fungi can supply up 90% of a plants nutrients. Nitrogen fixing bacteria have been found working in all parts of certain plants, even above ground. So I think preparations like HB101 and humic acid actually work on soil microbiology and hence improve plant health indirectly.

If you consider that in Japan they tend to use fertiliser balls, which are mostly organic and require bacteria to mobilize the nutrients, adding HB101 would enhance plant nutrient supply by improving microbial growth. If you fertilize with inorganic fertilizers, HB101 would have little effect, as plants take the nutrients up easily and directly from soil water.

We have to remember that plants will take up nutrients over a wide range of chemical formulations, so it doesn't matter too much about the ratios. What is important is that all the elements required for growth are present and that pH doesn't stray too far, one way or the other.

The only way to tell if a fertilizer regime is working for your plants and potting mix type is to conduct pot trials. This means having three groups, of 3-6 identical plants, one group only getting irrigation water, another group only the current fertiliser, and the third group only the new fertilizer. Run the trial for at least 6 weeks.

Paul

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Re: Where to purchase Fertilizer?

Post  drgonzo on Tue Sep 04, 2012 3:58 am

Paul

What are your thoughts on Walters "super feeding" style of nutrient delivery as discussed in this thread?
http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t3328-walter-pall-blog-post

I would value your expert appraisal of this method.
-Jay

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Re: Where to purchase Fertilizer?

Post  63pmp on Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:06 am

Hi Jay,

Firstly, I have to say that it obviously works well for Walter.

I think if anyone wants to try it, then they should do a pot trial to compare it with their current fertilizer regime. I would try it on something like hornbeam or Japanese maple, and see what happens.

Personally, I have issues with several aspects of the regime as outlined by Walter, both practically and philosophically, but I'm not sure if this is the right thread to discuss these.

Paul

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Re: Where to purchase Fertilizer?

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:42 am

Paul,

a question, in the light of the use of Akadama and organic balls of fertilizer and HB101, as opposed to "artificial" soils, and inorganic fertilizers does it really make a big difference ?

On our side, peatmoss is broken down to a fine powder/particle iin a year,so obviously bacteria is doing something.In fact if I have to use peatmoss or cocopeat, I always add a few ounces of compost,to encourage a reaction.

With akadama, which broke down too quickly here in the tropics, I ended up firing the leftover material,and using that instead.

My problem with the suddenly discovered use of inorganic and peatmoss etc. soils is that they were already around in the workbook provided by The Bonsai Farm out of San Antonio,Texas back in 1980.
Nothing new.
Just shows that folk don't read much and Bonsai info seems to be travelling more by word of mouth.
Later.
Khaimraj

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Re: Where to purchase Fertilizer?

Post  coh on Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:01 pm

Paul,

I would like to hear your thoughts as well. If you don't think this is the best place, how about the existing thread on the subject: Walter Pall blog post.

My question about his approach - we are always advised to fertilize at less strength than listed on the labels, and are often warned to be wary of fertilizer "burn" (talking leaves, not roots) especially for certain susceptible species during the heat of summer. So how does one not run into problems when using many times the recommended rate of fertilizer? The obvious answer is "lots of flushing with plain water", but I've always been led to believe that if you give a too strong concentration of fertilizer it's going to create problems even if you then flush the pot well at the next watering. Thoughts?

coh
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Re: Where to purchase Fertilizer?

Post  Poink88 on Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:54 pm

Chris,

I am not in any way in the position to question WP's results but I am in the camp that it is better to have less fertilizer than more. His system works but it is like having a colon bypass so you can be a glutton and binge eat...why??? It is not practical and wasteful as far as I am concerned. I would rather find a happy medium...where my plants drain relatively well and just fertilize every 2 weeks or so. It is out there, we just need to find the right balance/mix for our locale and tree.

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Re: Where to purchase Fertilizer?

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:19 pm

Dario,

it has more to do with simply learning how to grow a tree or shrub and this experience can change from tree to tree.

Ask yourself, if I live in the hot, sunny, so called -humid tropics, how come my trees are placed in full sun from 6 to 6 [ once they are evolved to take sun and not like the maple for example.]?

And you guys are using shade in some form during summer ?

Experience, can make all the difference.
Plus whatever happened to the great seaweed experience?
Later.
Khaimraj

*If your wife lived in the village [Trinidad ], did she live on the Eastern Side with the wind tunnel or the Western side with no breeze or a valley type area.
How hot was her life ? Was it humid ?

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Re: Where to purchase Fertilizer?

Post  coh on Tue Sep 04, 2012 2:54 pm

Dario,

I'm not concerned with the waste - on the scale that I fertilize, it's really not an issue. I am, however, interested in understanding how someone can feed at such a high rate and not develop problems.

We often read that fertilizing at full strength in the summer leads to problems - because the trees are transpiring so much, that essentially all the water in the pot is taken up very quickly. This in turn, supposedly, causes either or both (1) concentration of salts in the substrate, harming the roots, or (2) uptake of too much fertilizer which results in leaf "burn", especially for maples, beech, etc.

Just trying to understand as many methods as possible so I can apply to my own conditions.

coh
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Re: Where to purchase Fertilizer?

Post  Poink88 on Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:24 pm

Chris,

I understand. I've seen what over fertilizing can do and definitely do not want that. If it works for some, great for them but my plants grow very fast with my regimen now so I am not changing it (until I see a need).

Good luck with your quest and hope you find the answer.

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Re: Where to purchase Fertilizer?

Post  Treedwarfer on Tue Sep 04, 2012 4:46 pm

The advise to fertilize at reduced strength is okay of you fertilize more frequently - like every watering. Otherwise it's a slow starvation diet.

Leaf damage in summer is not caused so much by the strength of fertilizer, but more by too high nitrogen content: shoots and leaves grow long and sappy and are unable to take the dessicating effect of the sun. You should fertilize when the tree needs it, not when you feel like it. In high summer most broadleaved species are forced to shut down because of the heat, so any artificially induced growth is weak and vulnerable.

Root burn, so called, is when the concentration of nutrients in the soil is higher than that in the roots, so water migrates through the root walls back into the soil to balance the concentrations (reverse osmosis). Roots die as a result. Dead roots, browning leaves. Your foliage looks as if the tree is in drought even though the soil is wet.

Feeding with regular high concentrations of liquid or soluble fertilizer can (but doesn't always) lead to periodic root shock which can damage growing root tips.

I always use slow release fertilizer at recommended strength, so my trees have a constant supply of nutrients administered in a controlled fashion. It's much harder to over feed this way.

I also prefer organic. The soil should be a living habitat for the roots, full of microbes and organisms that help keep the roots healthy and resistant to stress and disease. Chemical fertilizer is just as good for the plants, but not for the soil, and when a tree is in long-term container cultivation, a healthy soil is essential. (This also begs a thread on soil ingredients...) For what it's worth, I have been using Green Dream from Stone Lantern for a number of years and have found it to be absolutely the ideal - fairly well balanced (7:5:5) and not too strong, releases nutrients over a six week period, and feeds the inhabitants of the soil as well as the tree.

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Re: Where to purchase Fertilizer?

Post  JimLewis on Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:32 pm

I'm not concerned with the waste - on the scale that I fertilize, it's really not an issue. I am, however, interested in understanding how someone can feed at such a high rate and not develop problems.

When you use almost 100% inorganic material like he does, liquid flows straight through. Trees tend to use what they need and not use the rest. In a more organic soil, "the rest" might hang around and cause problems. In his mix, it's gone in the next watering.

I do wish people would stop trying to turn fertilization of bonsai into higher-level rocket science. It's not.

_________________
Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

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Re: Where to purchase Fertilizer?

Post  drgonzo on Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:56 pm

JimLewis wrote:
Trees tend to use what they need and not use the rest. In a more organic soil, "the rest" might hang around and cause problems. In his mix, it's gone in the next watering.

I do wish people would stop trying to turn fertilization of bonsai into higher-level rocket science. It's not.

Many deciduous trees including Maple and Beech, have little control over the rate and quantity of chemicals in fertilizers that are absorbed into their transpiration stream, hence we get toxicities (sometimes quite rapidly) as these chemicals are accumulated in plant tissue. They do not simply absorb what they need and ignore the rest.

-Jay


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Re: Where to purchase Fertilizer?

Post  JimLewis on Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:03 pm

Many deciduous trees including Maple and Beech, have little control over the rate and quantity of chemicals in fertilizers are absorbed into their transpiration stream, hence we get toxicities (sometimes quite rapidly) as these chemicals are accumulated in plant tissue.

Citation????? Especially as to how that might apply to a bonsai grown in an inorganic substrate.

_________________
Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

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Re: Where to purchase Fertilizer?

Post  coh on Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:08 pm

Paragraph directly from Walter's essay (though I added emphasis):

Since there is no soil in modern substrates there is very little alive in them. They dry out easily and one must water several times a day when it is hot, especially if you have used pure inorganics. Therefore I add rough peat in addition to the previously mentioned substrates. This is the kind of peat that is harvested in bogs and comes in its natural coarse form. Make certain not to use fine particle peat/sphagnum moss, even if the package says “dust free” as the particles will be too small. If you cannot find the correct type of peat, use small bark bits without dust particles, or cut coconut fibers. These organic components should comprise 15-20 % of the overall volume, a bit less with conifers, olives and such, and a bit more with small trees and azaleas.
Walter often refers to "100% inorganic substrate", but as you can see he typically adds a significant amount of organic matter. I think most of the "professional" pre-mixed bonsai soils contain similar amounts of organic material, at least those that I've seen/used.

If you water a bonsai with a fertilizer solution that is 5x the recommended strength, it doesn't matter if most of it flows out of the pot - the water remaining will have that strong fertilizer concentration. So the question remains unanswered - why does it not cause problems? And why don't more people fertilize this way?

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Re: Where to purchase Fertilizer?

Post  drgonzo on Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:26 pm

JimLewis wrote:
Many deciduous trees including Maple and Beech, have little control over the rate and quantity of chemicals in fertilizers are absorbed into their transpiration stream, hence we get toxicities (sometimes quite rapidly) as these chemicals are accumulated in plant tissue.

Citation????? Especially as to how that might apply to a bonsai grown in an inorganic substrate.

Two texts that would be of great help in your understanding of horticulture are;

1. Understanding Ph Management for Container-Grown Crops, by Argo and Fischer

2. Plant nutrient disorders 5 Ornamental plants and shrubs, by G.C. Cresswell and R.G. Weir

The second text frequently mentions fertilizer interactions in soilless media. Either of these two texts would help educate and hopefully correct much of the incorrect botanical knowledge you repeatedly present on this forum as fact.

-Jay

PS. This is the first time in a year since I joined this forum that I can remember ANYONE being asked for a citation for proof of something they were posting...




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Re: Where to purchase Fertilizer?

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:38 pm

Actually Chris,

using a type of material we have down here called - yellow stone - it's a clay and silt bonded with calcium/magnesium etc and iron [ I believe a formation caused by fresh water hitting salt water at the mouth of a river/sea, and given thousands of years to be pressured by weight of it and other deposits ] which if sifted can support life in small containers easily. No organic particles needed and in hot sun, I can do the same with my crushed sifted porous earthenware red brick.

The above as a soil also responds to being fertilized with 1/3 strength lawn fertilizer [ Super green 35 -5- 5 ]
I use this fertilizer in our Dry season - no rain and lots of breeze to keep the leaves deep green, but it does not cause weak growth.
Additionally, any nitrogen fixing plant grows well on it as does grass. Example would be our local acacia and the sensitive plant [ mimosa p.]
[This is old stuff mentioned on the IBC,I believe when it was an e-mail service.]

It's very hard to stay sterile where birds, bugs and dust flies naturally.
Later.
Khaimraj

These are two roots about 5 to 6 years old - Fukien tea, growing on yellow stone.
Note the weeds and moss growing as well.


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Re: Where to purchase Fertilizer?

Post  Treedwarfer on Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:59 pm

It's important to understand that not all inorganic substrates are the same, neither are all organic materials. Haydite has little cationic exchange capacity (cac) whereas turface has an extremely high and potentially dangerous cac. Akadama has none and grit have none. Same with organics: peat low, bark practically non-existent, leaf litter moderate to high. Also, as Dr Gonzo pointed out, not all species eat and drink with the same table manners.

One thing that is important to bear in mind is the NPK of whatever feed you use. Overfeeding with 3:3:3, or even up to 6:6:6 will do no real harm (and probably does good) in good bonsai soil, but overfeeding with 20:20:20 probably will cause problems fairly quickly.

There are so many variables that the more you try to analyze fertilization practices, the more confused you're likely to get.

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Re: Where to purchase Fertilizer?

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:13 pm

"There are so many variables that the more you try to analyze fertilization practices, the more confused you're likely to get"

Response - probabably because, the questions are only focusing on soil/fertilizer reaction and not air humidty,time of year,exposure-wind and sun, watering technique - hose, watering can, drench or just enough and so on. Plus age of plant and purpose of training - grow on, maintain and so on.

Welcome to the engaging hobby that is Bonsai.
Love it.
Later.
Khaimraj

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Re: Where to purchase Fertilizer?

Post  coh on Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:17 pm

Treedwarfer wrote:It's important to understand that not all inorganic substrates are the same, neither are all organic materials. Haydite has little cationic exchange capacity (cac) whereas turface has an extremely high and potentially dangerous cac. Akadama has none and grit have none. Same with organics: peat low, bark practically non-existent, leaf litter moderate to high. Also, as Dr Gonzo pointed out, not all species eat and drink with the same table manners.
If there was ever a paragraph that needed citations, this was it! Where did you get this from? We had a thread a while back (kanuma thread) where people were posting actual numerical cec values for various soil components. The numbers posted there do not match your characterization of them.

That said, no doubt the actual composition of the inorganic portion of the mix is important!

Treedwarfer wrote:One thing that is important to bear in mind is the NPK of whatever feed you use. Overfeeding with 3:3:3, or even up to 6:6:6 will do no real harm (and probably does good) in good bonsai soil, but overfeeding with 20:20:20 probably will cause problems fairly quickly.
I'm pretty sure Walter himself said he buys "whatever is on sale".

Treedwarfer wrote:There are so many variables that the more you try to analyze fertilization practices, the more confused you're likely to get.
So, what are we supposed to do then? Just blindly follow fertilizer advice from someone in a different area using different soil components? Isn't it worth trying to understand it as best possible so we can apply that knowledge to our own trees?

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Re: Where to purchase Fertilizer?

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