LOTR . . . . . . .

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LOTR . . . . . . .

Post  JimLewis on Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:32 pm

http://www.bonsaiempire.com/advanced/bag-end

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Re: LOTR . . . . . . .

Post  plant_dr on Tue Aug 21, 2012 4:48 pm

Very cool!

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Re: LOTR . . . . . . .

Post  Xavier de Lapeyre on Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:05 pm

yeps awsome Smile
Its from Chris Guise [ UK ]

He also did those:


Bonsai Longbarrow


Bonsai with Stile

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Re: LOTR . . . . . . .

Post  Poink88 on Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:16 pm

xtolord wrote:
Bonsai with Stile
I like this the most.

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Re: LOTR . . . . . . .

Post  Billy M. Rhodes on Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:40 pm

But, is it Bonsai?

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Re: LOTR . . . . . . .

Post  Poink88 on Tue Aug 21, 2012 5:49 pm

Billy M. Rhodes wrote:But, is it Bonsai?
For me it is...but I know nothing. Razz

Question, do you equate Penjing to bonsai?

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Re: LOTR . . . . . . .

Post  Nemphis on Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:38 pm

Shocked

I've been a hardcore fan of LotR for years,but now I'm even more hardcore!

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Re: LOTR . . . . . . .

Post  Billy M. Rhodes on Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:42 pm

Poink88 wrote:
Billy M. Rhodes wrote:But, is it Bonsai?
For me it is...but I know nothing. Razz

Question, do you equate Penjing to bonsai?

Penjing is Penjing Bonsai is Bonsai

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Re: LOTR . . . . . . .

Post  Poink88 on Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:47 pm

Billy M. Rhodes wrote:Penjing is Penjing Bonsai is Bonsai
That explains it and I understand and respect that.

I (wrong or right) equate them and these are very much Penjing with different influence.

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Re: LOTR . . . . . . .

Post  Attila Soos on Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:47 pm

Billy M. Rhodes wrote:But, is it Bonsai?

But, does it matter?

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Re: LOTR . . . . . . .

Post  cbobgo on Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:56 pm

I would not call this Penjing. There is nothing about it that has that Chinese/Penjing feel to it.

It is certainly not traditional bonsai. But there is alot of bonsai across the world that are not traditional bonsai, and they are still called bonsai. Nick Lenz in a bonsai artist, is he not? This to me is in the same category as what he does.

- bob



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Re: LOTR . . . . . . .

Post  Attila Soos on Tue Aug 21, 2012 8:24 pm

The website says "trayscape". That sounds like an accurate description. It doesn't claim to be anything else.

I think when somebody brings up the "this is not bonsai" argument, that is just a round-about way of saying that "I don't like it". The reason doesn't matter.

When I don't like something, I don't think that I should apologize for it and bring up a "valid" reason, such as "this is not bonsai". Conversely, if we like what Chris did, we don't need to justify it, by giving it a valid, bona fide label. Liking or not liking something has nothing to do with being rational. It's a feeling. Labels have nothing to do with it. For every trayscape that I don't like, there are ten "valid bonsai" that I dislike just as much. So, why are we hung up on classifications?


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Re: LOTR . . . . . . .

Post  JimLewis on Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:33 pm

So, why are we hung up on classifications?

Oooh, oooh, oooh! Can we expand on that?

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Jim Lewis - lewisjk@windstream.net - Western NC - People, when Columbus discovered this country, it was plumb full of nuts and berries. And I'm right here to tell you the berries are just about all gone. Uncle Dave Macon, old-time country musician

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Re: LOTR . . . . . . .

Post  Attila Soos on Tue Aug 21, 2012 9:49 pm

JimLewis wrote:
So, why are we hung up on classifications?

Oooh, oooh, oooh! Can we expand on that?

"Why are we hung up on classification?" - its a rhetorical question, really. The point I'm trying to make, is that bringing up a classification issue when presented with a miniature lanscape, can be perceived as an insult to the viewer's intelligence (since most of us know what traditional bonsai is, or is not). Also, it sounds like an excuse to reject the work.
In my opinion, to be fair to the creator of the work in question, we could 1) either make some specific comments on the actual work, if we are interested enough to comment on it, or 2) state that we are just not a fan of this genre, without trying to find excuses.
In short, starting a discussion on what is (or is not) bonsai, just seems disingenuous and unfair to the artist. It may be that some people are too polite to openly reject it (thus the attempt to try to define bonsai for us), but at the end, this approach is more harmful than not.

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Re: LOTR . . . . . . .

Post  Treedwarfer on Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:10 am

One of my favorite subjects....

Friends, here's the way it is: the trees came first, then someone sat down (or stood up) and put names to the various shapes - or styles, if you will. That happened some time ago, when Bilbo Baggins was merely a glint in his papa's eye. Since then many more shapes and concepts have emerged, shapes and concepts that do not fit comfortable into any of the pre-existing classifications. Therefor the current classifications we have to deal with are inadequate for today's bonsai art, particularly so in the west. So forget about them. Who needs them anyway?

Works like this should be shown, often, and if they are accepted by the bonsai public at large then they are valid as bonsai.

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Re: LOTR . . . . . . .

Post  Billy M. Rhodes on Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:18 am

if they are accepted by the bonsai public at large then they are valid as bonsai.


I am not very large.

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Re: LOTR . . . . . . .

Post  Steven on Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:53 am

I have always understood that their are defined/traditionally accepted works that would be classified as bonsai, but that as the art form has grown it has (possibly not in the eyes of all)and should continue to grow and evolve to include new forms, styles, and expressions of art and nature. I guess in this case I would say it would fall into the realm of bonsai if at the minimum the techniques used to create bonsai were in fact used to shape, style, and maintain the trees pictured, but thats just me......



All politics aside, very cool

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Re: LOTR . . . . . . .

Post  Sam Ogranaja on Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:20 am

From Wikipedia - Bonsai (盆栽, lit. plantings in tray, from bon, a tray or low-sided pot and sai, a planting or plantings.

It looks like Chris's creation is in a pot so I'd say that alone begins to qualify it as a bonsai. Then the planting has to have artistic merit, and Chris's planting has that too. It has to have a theme and horticultural clues and it has those as well.

I'd say there is no doubt that is a Bonsai. Obviously not traditional or classical Japanese bonsai, or Chinese, or Malaysian, but are we going to beat that dead horse again? Go for it.

If I could meet this guy, I'd shake his hand and tell him "Well done". I've often thought about creating tray-scapes and may do so in the future, when I have trees nice enough or with enough character. For now, I look to plantings like this and Dan Barton's Hedge Maple planting for inspiration.

Have a great week!!!
Sam

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LOTR

Post  bonsaisr on Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:29 am

Is Jackson Pollock art? There are paintings on canvas that do not remotely resemble traditional French or Italian oils, but they hang in museums and people call them art. Of course "Bag End" is bonsai. It's a saikei, in modern European style. What's wrong with that?
Iris

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Re: LOTR . . . . . . .

Post  Poink88 on Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:35 am

cbobgo wrote:I would not call this Penjing. There is nothing about it that has that Chinese/Penjing feel to it.
I agree but Penjing is mostly tray planted landscapes and nothing I read ever said it has to be Chinese...these are shown with different culture influences (or even myth) but the idea is the same. To me it is more Penjing than (traditional) bonsai but as I said initially...I equate the two anyway. Wink

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Re: LOTR . . . . . . .

Post  bumblebee on Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:38 am

I love this trayscape! Ever since I first saw it I wonder how its doing.
I hope Chris is keeping it up.!

Libby

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Re: LOTR . . . . . . .

Post  CraftyTanuki on Wed Aug 22, 2012 3:52 am

Sakei?

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Re: LOTR . . . . . . .

Post  Treedwarfer on Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:02 am

CraftyTanuki wrote:Sakei?

How about "Original"?

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Re: LOTR . . . . . . .

Post  Guest on Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:05 am

Treedwarfer wrote:

How about "Original"?


...Maybe not. Evil or Very Mad

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Re: LOTR . . . . . . .

Post  AlainK on Wed Aug 22, 2012 9:57 am

AFAIK, "Penjing" is the general Chinese term, whereas "Bonsai" is Japanese. There are of course categories and styles for both. Unfortunately, I can't read Chinese and often online translation is of little help, but look at this page for instance :
http://www.fff789.com/shownews.aspx?id=2314
Google translation for "Bonsai" and "Penjing" is the same in chinese : 盆景
If you search the term for these ideograms in the above page, you will see it several times.

Penjing often includes figures of man, animal, huts, etc. to evoke a landscape, but not all the time.

Whatever, I love Chris's works, and yes, trayscape is the best word to use.

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Re: LOTR . . . . . . .

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