Ulmus and it's soil ......

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Ulmus and it's soil ......

Post  efishn on Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:12 pm

Hello all,
I'm trying to build a good soil for my new Ulmus 4 years old.
since i know that this tree prefer moist conditions i wandered perhaps to add organic material like compost to my mix.
my mix is: 35% lava 15% perlite 20% peat 15% coco and 15% humus. you know the climate here in Israel- it's hot sunny
according to your experience guys, how much compost should i add ?

thank you
Efi



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Re: Ulmus and it's soil ......

Post  leatherback on Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:43 pm

You already have 50% organics in there. I would say that should do the trick. But then again.. I am not growing trees in your region; Guess with temps of 35+ degrees you might want to consider 80% organics.

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Re: Ulmus and it's soil ......

Post  Billy M. Rhodes on Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:47 pm

I think you are making too complicated. We use 1/3 Turface, 1/3 Lava and 1/3 Fafard Composted Pine Bark. What do you mean by "compost?" Here "compost"is decayed plant material and vegetable peelings from our kitchen. I don't use this type of compost in my pots for fear of pathogens if the composting process doesn't kill them all.

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Re: Ulmus and it's soil ......

Post  efishn on Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:27 pm

leatherback wrote:You already have 50% organics in there. I would say that should do the trick. But then again.. I am not growing trees in your region; Guess with temps of 35+ degrees you might want to consider 80% organics.

ok, i see what you mean.
thanks a lot.


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Re: Ulmus and it's soil ......

Post  efishn on Mon Aug 20, 2012 10:35 pm

Billy M. Rhodes wrote:I think you are making too complicated. We use 1/3 Turface, 1/3 Lava and 1/3 Fafard Composted Pine Bark. What do you mean by "compost?" Here "compost"is decayed plant material and vegetable peelings from our kitchen. I don't use this type of compost in my pots for fear of pathogens if the composting process doesn't kill them all.

Hi Billy, and thanks for your replay
what is that "Turface" ?
and what is that "Fafard" ?

our Compost it's exactly as you described. so you say it's not safe to use... ?
what kind of organic materials do you have?

thanks
Efi


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Re: Ulmus and it's soil ......

Post  PeacefulAres on Tue Aug 21, 2012 7:56 am

Billy M. Rhodes wrote:I think you are making too complicated. We use 1/3 Turface, 1/3 Lava and 1/3 Fafard Composted Pine Bark. What do you mean by "compost?" Here "compost"is decayed plant material and vegetable peelings from our kitchen. I don't use this type of compost in my pots for fear of pathogens if the composting process doesn't kill them all.

What about composted cow manure? I've heard it's pasteurized.

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Re: Ulmus and it's soil ......

Post  Billy M. Rhodes on Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:27 am

PeacefulAres wrote:
Billy M. Rhodes wrote:I think you are making too complicated. We use 1/3 Turface, 1/3 Lava and 1/3 Fafard Composted Pine Bark. What do you mean by "compost?" Here "compost” is decayed plant material and vegetable peelings from our kitchen. I don't use this type of compost in my pots for fear of pathogens if the composting process doesn't kill them all.

What about composted cow manure? I've heard it's pasteurized.

Depends upon who is selling it, I think pasteurized might be the wrong word. It is composted much like other things but since it is animal waste it gets hotter and therefore should kill more pathogens. Also there are not many/any pathogens that transfer from animals to plants. Plant/vegetable based compost that doesn't get as hot may allow some plant pathogens to survive and infect your plants.

Turface is a baked clay product - it looks like someone took a hammer to a bunch of terracotta pots and broke them up in to 1/8 size pieces. We use it to retain moisture and to open up the soil and allow air in.

Fafard is a brand name for the composted pine bark. This is a commercial, sterile product that we use as the organic part of our soil.

You could probably build a solar oven in Israel that would bake vegetable/plant compost to a high enough temperature to kill pathogens. Don't try using the oven in your stove, it will really smell up the place and take a while to go away, it will also irritate your wife. (Don't ask how I know.)

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Re: Ulmus and it's soil ......

Post  PeacefulAres on Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:46 am

Billy M. Rhodes wrote:
PeacefulAres wrote:
Billy M. Rhodes wrote:I think you are making too complicated. We use 1/3 Turface, 1/3 Lava and 1/3 Fafard Composted Pine Bark. What do you mean by "compost?" Here "compost” is decayed plant material and vegetable peelings from our kitchen. I don't use this type of compost in my pots for fear of pathogens if the composting process doesn't kill them all.

What about composted cow manure? I've heard it's pasteurized.

Depends upon who is selling it, I think pasteurized might be the wrong word. It is composted much like other things but since it is animal waste it gets hotter and therefore should kill more pathogens. Also there are not many/any pathogens that transfer from animals to plants. Plant/vegetable based compost that doesn't get as hot may allow some plant pathogens to survive and infect your plants.

Turface is a baked clay product - it looks like someone took a hammer to a bunch of terracotta pots and broke them up in to 1/8 size pieces. We use it to retain moisture and to open up the soil and allow air in.

Fafard is a brand name for the composted pine bark. This is a commercial, sterile product that we use as the organic part of our soil.

You could probably build a solar oven in Israel that would bake vegetable/plant compost to a high enough temperature to kill pathogens. Don't try using the oven in your stove, it will really smell up the place and take a while to go away, it will also irritate your wife. (Don't ask how I know.)

In my town, there is a company that sells a variety of aggregate products for wholesale and retail, and I was thinking of stopping by. I was wondering how crushed brick compares to turface.

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Re: Ulmus and it's soil ......

Post  Billy M. Rhodes on Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:05 am

Crushed brick would be harder than Turface, probably baked at a higher temperature and would hold less moisture.
Turface is easy to find in Florida, it is used by ball fields and golf courses, check out a company called John Deere, also in South Florida you can find horticultural supply companies, look for BWI.

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Re: Ulmus and it's soil ......

Post  efishn on Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:44 pm

[quote="Billy M. Rhodes"][quote="PeacefulAres"]
Billy M. Rhodes wrote:.....try using the oven in your stove, it will really smell up the place and take a while to go away, it will also irritate your wife. (Don't ask how I know.)

Ok Billy, I'm not asking (but i have a clue....) Smile

thanks very much for your help. i decided to change my soil a little and we'll see what will happened.

Greeting
Efi

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Re: Ulmus and it's soil ......

Post  Guest on Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:12 pm

efishn wrote:Hello all,
I'm trying to build a good soil for my new Ulmus 4 years old.
since i know that this tree prefer moist conditions i wandered perhaps to add organic material like compost to my mix.
my mix is: 35% lava 15% perlite 20% peat 15% coco and 15% humus. you know the climate here in Israel- it's hot sunny
according to your experience guys, how much compost should i add ?

thank you
Efi



Based on my own experiences, i think you would be happy with only 2 components. Coco and Some kind of modern substrate.
I use something thats calles Cocosol (from DCM), its made of coco fibres and very (mayb max 3 to 4 mm)) bits of coco bark, so NOT the rough bark bits. As modern substrate I use Zeolite (clinoptilolite 95% pure).

Now you should know that this kind of cocosoil doesnt fall/break apart as radidly as 'normal' organics. So thats a good thing. This cocosoil is excellent at retaining/buffering/absorbing water, and at the same time lets air penetrate your soil enough.

The zeolite also does not break down, has excellent absorbing qualities (even 30% better than lava), is a slowreleaser of water and fertilizer once absorbed.

I guess if you use 70 % zeolite and 30 % of this cocosol, you will be (more than) fine.

To compare, I have some trees in 80% zeolite + 20% coco that can stay in full sun all day at 30° and still be moist enough at the evening when i water again. Offcourse the top soil is dry, but i'm talking right there down at the roots.

In the same substrate, in spring with full sun, or when its a bit cloudy, they can do 2 days.

Only with heavy drinkers such as birch, or with trees you want to grow vigourously (training) you always water once a day.

I ONLY WATER ONCE A DAY, and this last week in belgium we had 30 to 36 degrees...i only put them in semishade, and there is hardly a leaf that goes yellow when i return from work in the early evening...

Many think that using a high percentage of modern substrate (almost like hydroculture) is asking for troubles, and you need to water 2 or 3 times a day.

If you have 40° always in summer, well... 70-30%, and in semishade, water once Wink

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Re: Ulmus and it's soil ......

Post  efishn on Tue Aug 21, 2012 2:29 pm

yves71277 wrote:
efishn wrote:

Based on my own experiences, i think you would be happy with only 2 components. Coco and Some kind of modern substrate.
I use something thats calles Cocosol (from DCM), its made of coco fibres and very (mayb max 3 to 4 mm)) bits of coco bark, so NOT the rough bark bits. As modern substrate I use Zeolite (clinoptilolite 95% pure).

Now you should know that this kind of cocosoil doesnt fall/break apart as radidly as 'normal' organics. So thats a good thing. This cocosoil is excellent at retaining/buffering/absorbing water, and at the same time lets air penetrate your soil enough.

The zeolite also does not break down, has excellent absorbing qualities (even 30% better than lava), is a slowreleaser of water and fertilizer once absorbed.

I guess if you use 70 % zeolite and 30 % of this cocosol, you will be (more than) fine.

To compare, I have some trees in 80% zeolite + 20% coco that can stay in full sun all day at 30° and still be moist enough at the evening when i water again. Offcourse the top soil is dry, but i'm talking right there down at the roots.

In the same substrate, in spring with full sun, or when its a bit cloudy, they can do 2 days.

Only with heavy drinkers such as birch, or with trees you want to grow vigourously (training) you always water once a day.

I ONLY WATER ONCE A DAY, and this last week in belgium we had 30 to 36 degrees...i only put them in semishade, and there is hardly a leaf that goes yellow when i return from work in the early evening...

Many think that using a high percentage of modern substrate (almost like hydroculture) is asking for troubles, and you need to water 2 or 3 times a day.

If you have 40° always in summer, well... 70-30%, and in semishade, water once Wink


OK Yves, it was very helpful for me.

thank you very much

ThumbsUp
Efi

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Re: Ulmus and it's soil ......

Post  PeacefulAres on Wed Aug 22, 2012 12:10 am

Billy M. Rhodes wrote:Crushed brick would be harder than Turface, probably baked at a higher temperature and would hold less moisture.
Turface is easy to find in Florida, it is used by ball fields and golf courses, check out a company called John Deere, also in South Florida you can find horticultural supply companies, look for BWI.

Thanks. I decided to check out John Deere, and I found a warehouse about a mile from my house. I'm not sure if they carry turface, so I'm gonna go check it out soon.

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Re: Ulmus and it's soil ......

Post  Billy M. Rhodes on Wed Aug 22, 2012 1:16 am

Make sure you check the particle size, Turface makes a number of different products and really all but the largest is too fine for Bonsai use.

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Re: Ulmus and it's soil ......

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:14 pm

My placement is full sun.
The soil mix is sifted all - crushed earthenware red brick, builder's sand and homemade compost.
The compost is sifted in the first year, and left damp in half a 55 gallon barrel, for another year.
By then the particles are unrecognizable.
I also add cocopeat if needed, and if desperate peat moss with perlite [ imported from Canada-sterile ].

I also reuse the old soil after it has been sifted.
Never had any problems.

Also have been testing rounded quartz particles [ aquarium gravel has a coat of acrylic on it, and it's white/off-white] for the ball bearing effect and air space in the soil.
Tests are on expendables - local ficus material.
So far no problems.

Our red extruded building block is from an earthenware source [ matures for use around 983 deg.c or so ] or doctored to matured at that temperature.
It will absorb water very nicely and works well on all the tree types I use.
Hope this helps someone.[ Over 30 years growing trees and vegetables - if some level of experience has to shown to be taken seriously.]

I also grew my trees with a Western exposure, on stands with sunlight from 6 to 6 and over an asphalt surface [front yard]. Leaf reduction was ----- wonderful.
later.
Khaimraj

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Re: Ulmus and it's soil ......

Post  efishn on Thu Aug 23, 2012 1:53 pm

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:My placement is full sun.
Khaimraj

Hi Khaimraj,
very interesting how u building your soil.
do u have some pic's of yours trees ? i would love to see some.

thx
Efi

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Re: Ulmus and it's soil ......

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Fri Aug 24, 2012 12:12 pm

Hello Efi,

you can simply put my name into the IBC search form and get images.
Until.
Khaimraj

Fukien Tea

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Re: Ulmus and it's soil ......

Post  efishn on Fri Aug 24, 2012 11:05 pm

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Hello Efi,
you can simply put my name into the IBC search form and get images.

Hi Khaimraj ,

i saw some, and i like them thumbs up

thx

Efi

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Re: Ulmus and it's soil ......

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