Another Welsh wonder

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Another Welsh wonder

Post  Guest on Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:52 pm

Jose, I couldnt agree more. No visual flow at all with the big chop in my opinion. Love the Pyracantha

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Re: Another Welsh wonder

Post  Tony on Mon Aug 17, 2009 7:57 pm

Hi Jose Luis,

The piracantha angustifolia by Mr. Chiu you provide as an example is a magnificent bonsai... but the 'thick' branches are in keeping with the style and they are considerably thinner than the main trunk, on my hawthorn the back branch is almost as thick as the main trunk, it competes for dominance.

I would never cut of any aged element in a tree if it contributed the 'finished' image that I desire.

Your 'chopped' example is fine in this view, and... styled with a single viewpoint it would be fine, but trees are not 2 dimensional.

I have had much debate with bonsai folk along this theme: do you style a tree for exhibition, or for the photograph (book)... and honestly some trees after seeing them in books are a disappointment in real life.

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‎"Study me as much as you like, you will never know me, for I differ a hundred ways from what you see me to be. Put yourself behind my eyes, and see me as I see myself, for I have chosen to dwell in a place you cannot see." — Rumi

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Re: Another Welsh wonder

Post  jrodriguez on Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:18 pm

Tony,

I agree that the two dimensional reality of a picture never captures the feeling of a tree in person. Also, some trees are far better photogenic than others.

I have had the opportunity of seeing this piracantha bonsai in person when i visited Mr. Chiu in Tien Wei. This tree is quite big and i believe that by developing secondary and tertiary growth on your hawthorn, the image i have in my mind can be accomplished.

I also have to consider that this is your tree and you will style it as you please. I only offer what i consider 'right' as influenced by my Taiwanese schooling and my 25 year + background. It really took me a long time to eliminate that first imbedded image of what i thought a bonsai should look like. I have learned the hard way that it's just a matter of taste and stylistical appreciation.

In regards to Mr. Chiu's piracantha, i would thicken some of the branches as some of them are equal in size and girth. This was a 'defect' appreciated by some of the judges in the last TBCA contest.

On another note, if i could grow hawthorn, i would probably persuade you to sell me this one!!!

Kind regards,
Jose Luis

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Re: Another Welsh wonder

Post  Todd Ellis on Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:28 am

I was surfing through some back pages when I came upon your Hawthorn. What an AWESOME Tree and pot!!! One of my favorite trees on IBC.

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Re: Another Welsh wonder

Post  Todd Ellis on Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:53 am

Do not cut it. You would lose the natural integrity of this beauty!

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Re: Another Welsh wonder

Post  Mario Stefano on Fri Feb 12, 2010 7:56 am

will baddeley wrote:Here is a Hawthorn ive been working on for about 7 years. Lovely bark as well. The Welsh weather and Sheep are a very creative combination


I see this only now. Beautifully hawthorn tree! I hope that this still seems to not cut anything! Beautiful!
Regards Mario

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Re: Another Welsh wonder

Post  p@scal on Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:43 am

Same for me, really beautiful Hawthorn. Damage to cut? Wink

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Re: Another Welsh wonder

Post  Guest on Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:04 pm

I gave this Hawthorn a reasonable cut back, just to improve future ramification. The suggested trunk chop is a no go for as long as I'm custodian of this tree. I don't think it will work with the flow of the trunk. Thanks for your comments. Very Happy

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Re: Another Welsh wonder

Post  Rick Moquin on Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:24 pm

I don't know how I missed this thread originally. I have read it over 4 times and see merits from both sides. After reading this one I stumbled upon this hawthorn

Although I am not too partial to the pointed apex, the tree appears ancient. It tells a story of how it became what it is today, convincingly IMO. It was reborn. This particular tree is far from finished. I do not know the intention of the owner as it isn't stated. I can see a drastic reduction of at least 1/3 of the height in the not too distant future.

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Re: Another Welsh wonder

Post  Rob Kempinski on Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:24 pm

If you rotate the tree and do a little carving to cut down some of the branch thickness is would make a super bonsai. I used yellow to show the branch thinning via carving. I believe I saw a shari in one of those areas already.

Rotation seems to be the key to me and moving the apex over the taller trunk making the two other trunk subordinate and part of the canopy. While thick those two other branches are still thinner than the main trunk. Plain pot to accent the bark and the flowers when they happen.


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Re: Another Welsh wonder

Post  Mario Stefano on Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:41 pm

The hawthorn has a very strong character and just to distinguish it from the same crowd. Any bumps on it is a reflection of his age and time from which he caught in the struggle to survive. It is special and I think it should remain as is. Of course, the Crown should be new growth.

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Re: Another Welsh wonder

Post  littleart-fx on Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:11 pm

Missed this thread, by wonder!

And yes it is a wonder!

As anyone has his opinion you're tree went through my mind as the discussion of it,......a lot!

At first glance right nebari upward tree corner (hook) shows a whole lot of heavy negative space don't know why to me it does
As I have told in my introduction, 2d photos of trees in development are harsh to get a good intemperance of a tree!
As I trawled the net for good foliage for a virt of the tree I stumbled upon this picture:



image from blogs.knowledgeofbonsai.org/.../travelogue/ (hope that is ok?)

Same tree few years back, funny.
Cut back right side seems to be to me a future job, first finish the first job a presentable bonsai!.
Cutting right side seems to be the option because this tree doesn't show where sun sets or goes
and that is in my humble opinion it's a fault,....

As I have mentioned, the negative space I find in this space on nebari a somehow awkward root to the right..... if it wasn't there negative space would increase since it is there..... grafting would be an option, the monster could suck up good potential shohin material!

Nice first show off material, with some work (see it as opportunities to learn!) on a i think expensive tree, big boy toy!
And decisions are hard made on those trees! (i know )!

In future i see a round pot with nibbled edge (wrapped) on outer rim and a real round belly on cloudy feet, in coll-ors of ox blood red and hawthorn young orange/brown!

As said it's hard to tell how or what, opinions i share are made of a person rather new to bonsai, things i say come from my point
of view and are mine, please shoot at these (sharp) as is i only want to learn as in this posting member (i think?)

Its ass cracking to make a virt of a very nice tree, because you have to live it ( in pixels)

Kicked the tree counter clockwise for 34 degrees
built a new lower top this to tickle (sorry tony!) negative space into wide open
Would like to turn the tree a bit ccw. 5 / 6 degrees (used to 3d modelling sorry! impossible here!)
Built up left in minor (something happened).

Tried to give my opinion towards a better tree, if i am wrong please say so while it is SNOWING! forgive me for my English, feelings and thought are hard to bound even in Dutch!



pot use '' tony tickle'' (somewhere?)

grtz the m


Last edited by fiona on Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:26 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : forgot pot use!)

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Re: Another Welsh wonder

Post  littleart-fx on Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:15 pm

read as the middle!

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Re: Another Welsh wonder

Post  Rick Moquin on Fri Feb 12, 2010 11:35 pm

Mario Stefano wrote:The hawthorn has a very strong character and just to distinguish it from the same crowd. Any bumps on it is a reflection of his age and time from which he caught in the struggle to survive. It is special and I think it should remain as is. Of course, the Crown should be new growth.
... agreed! The downside is that Will should of had a mentor earlier, like 7 years ago. We often look at the time we spent developing something, and then come to realize that it was all for nothing. This is not the case with Will's tree!!!

I submitted an entry that was developed into something. Is it flawless? No not even with my stretch of imagination. It requires a lot of work, but the frame work is there.

I have only been at this passion going on 6 years. I reflect today how further ahead I would be if I heeded such radical advice. Mnay of my trees would be worthy of a spot here. I am not saying world class trees, but worthy of posting.

No I decided to pursue my course and waste a couple of years, until finally coming to grips with reality. I would be 3-5 years ahead in many instances.

I am reminded of "Fred", I really got confused with that post I read yesterday. Until I saw it was an article someplace else.

Last WE I was accuse of being extremely blunt. Yes I was, I made no bones about it. To this day I believe in what I wrote, with the exception of the part that was deleted (Sarah Rayner). I am terribly sorry to the audience here, my eyes were insulted! My corresponding post the result of my pain.

You see, when someone post a tree, for criticism or not, they do indeed welcome it or not as the case may be. My reaction was an extremely honest one. You have 5 seconds to stimulate my opinion.

In Will's case the tree bothered me. I reserve my judgment of said tree for the time being.

Tony nailed it on the head, just like Walter nails it one the head (although I do have tremendous reservations about how he qualifies "brooms") as he did with "Fred".

Does that make these two "right"? Of course not. I like Walter's approach and some of his work, but not all. He knows that, no sense rehashing it here.

So what is wrong with Will's tree? I posted what words take too long to say. The branching is immature and will always be. 10 years from now, we will see the same tree and come to the same conclusion. Why is that? Because the further we delay doing what was supposed to be done in the first place, we exponentially magnify the flaws.

That right trunk has potential, air layer it.

Something I have come to grips with. Bonsai take 20 + years from conception, sometime longer...

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Re: Another Welsh wonder

Post  Guest on Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:36 am

We seem to be going over the same ground as the begining of this thread. I am NOT repeat NOT, removing the right side of this tree. As I said a page or so ago,I have removed/shortened a lot of the immature branches, to gain movement, taper and better future ramification. As far as mentors are concerned, it was Kevin Willson that I swapped the tree with. We both discussed the possibilities with this tree and dismissed the chop quite early on. I also took it to a Marco Invernizzi workshop at Kev's and although little work was carried out (other than carving),he also thought it was better as a whole tree.I do not feel my time has been wasted by removing and cutting back some of the branches. I have learned a lot from this tree, along with all the others and hard pruning/branch removal is part and parcel of our bonsais development. Very Happy

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Re: Another Welsh wonder

Post  Rob Kempinski on Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:30 am

littleart-fx wrote:Missed this thread, by wonder!



image from blogs.knowledgeofbonsai.org/.../travelogue/ (hope that is ok?)


Actually that was my blog. Fair use means you should normally just cite the link, or ask for permission in advance.

Anyway, I forgot that I photographed this tree when I met Will at Green Lawns. I agree with Will I wouldn't cut off the main trunk but I still think changing the planting angle is a good idea.

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Re: Another Welsh wonder

Post  Guest on Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:52 pm

A few pics taken today, to show pruning of the branches. There is still a large branch on the left, at the back that needs removing and some carving. I will sort that out next week.

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Re: Another Welsh wonder

Post  Guest on Sat Feb 13, 2010 1:56 pm

Rotated anti clockwise,as was suggested. Not sure I like this either.

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Re: Another Welsh wonder

Post  Guest on Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:02 pm

The back. Branch I want to remove, is on the right coming towards the viewer.

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Re: Another Welsh wonder

Post  Guest on Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:13 pm

Side view.

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Re: Another Welsh wonder

Post  Smithy on Sat Feb 13, 2010 3:07 pm

I love this tree, it really captures the image of an old tree. I wouldn't change it at all.

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Re: Another Welsh wonder

Post  Jay Wilson on Sat Feb 13, 2010 4:26 pm

I'm with Smithy on this. That back branch looks fine in a picture though it may be too fat in person. Could you carve a little more to reduce its girth?
Another wonderful tree Will.

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Re: Another Welsh wonder

Post  Walter Pall on Sat Feb 13, 2010 4:47 pm

will baddeley wrote:A few pics taken today, to show pruning of the branches. There is still a large branch on the left, at the back that needs removing and some carving. I will sort that out next week.

Now this looks very good to me. The two thick 'branches' on the lower left side are, of course, not branches, but secondary trunks as broadleaved trees (and quite often conifers too) have them in most cases in nature. The whole tree now is set back a bit by drastic pruning. But it was necessary. It needs another three years to get all that fine ramification. The fact that you ruthlessly pruned back the right side and let it sweep more to the left side improved the balance a lot.
Cutting off the whole right side is possible. But as is now it would not be better than the present image. Only more powerful. Well, do you always want to have this overwhelming powerful tree? Can it not be elegant? Especially if it is not a conifer.
The nebari will get a lot better by itself according to my experience with hawthorns. Just feed a lot organic. E.g. dried chicken sh..t. it works wonders.
The 'back branch', is , of course also not a branch, but a secondary trunk and it is SUPPOSED to be fat.

Bottom line: I think that this is a very good hawthorn in the making and I suggest to just continue along this path.

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Re: Another Welsh wonder

Post  Roger Snipes on Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:11 pm

Walter makes a good point, one does not always have to design the most powerful tree possible. I think the current direction Will is taking the tree in is just fine. That back branch may not really need to come off either, but it is always hard to make a judgement without seeing the tree in person.

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Re: Another Welsh wonder

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