Collected Grren Beach

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Collected Grren Beach

Post  DangerousBry on Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:37 pm

This year out collecting I managed to collect this gorgeous little beech tree. It was growing on a bank in semi cascade style.
The trunk goes right down into the pot. So it'll be difficult change the angle until I can root it further up the trunk, either by air layer or ground layering.
However I kinda like it... However its possible it might lend itself to a Windswept design. So are there are any artists willing to whip up a pencil sketch for a windswept design for this one!!????
:)

Here's a good view of the tree...





Thanks
Bryan

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Re: Collected Grren Beach

Post  Guest on Sun Jul 29, 2012 3:35 pm

Hi Bryan. If you won' t mind, I'll give it a shot later. Laughing

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Re: Collected Grren Beach

Post  DangerousBry on Sun Jul 29, 2012 3:54 pm

jun wrote:Hi Bryan. If you won' t mind, I'll give it a shot later. :lol:

Hi jun....
I don't mind in the slightest. I actually ad your skills in mind!! Hope you don't mind =)

Cheers
Bry

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Re: Collected Grren Beach

Post  Guest on Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:54 am


Hi Bryan.

Not too sure how small the leaves would get though.



regards,
jun Smile

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Re: Collected Grren Beach

Post  DangerousBry on Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:12 am

jun wrote:
Hi Bryan.

Not too sure how small the leaves would get though.
regards,
jun :)
This is pretty awesome... I would posibly draw it being windswept the other way!?
Fantastic drawing though, thanks Jun...

The leaves currently are reasonably small for beech...


Bry

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Re: Collected Grren Beach

Post  AnjaM on Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:05 am

DangerousBry wrote:
This is pretty awesome... I would posibly draw it being windswept the other way!?
Fantastic drawing though, thanks Jun...


As I was thinking, too. But this sure has more drama.

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Re: Collected Grren Beach

Post  Guest on Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:06 am

Hi Bry.

Of course it will work out too on the other side but for me I think, this side will provide more drama. As if the tree's trunk and main branches are fighting the wind direction.
Your tree got a very young looking and slender trunk, I tried to use this as an advantage rather than disadvantage. In nature young looking trees seems to be easily swayed by the wind even if the trunk had a movement going at the opposite direction. I see your tree more of a "temporary windswept", just like trees in open fields which is not regularly battered by high velocity winds causing permanent effect on the trunk and main branches.

Unlike in The case of Andre"s "Ficus burtt" IMHO his tree got a very stablish/more matured appearance and creating a windswept design, (moving in the suggested drawing ) with a more "permanent wind swept" appearance is almost a give away. plus the strong nebari would also be a factor.

Thanks for appreciating my suggestion.

regards,
jun Smile

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Re: Collected Grren Beach

Post  Guest on Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:20 am

AnjaM wrote:
DangerousBry wrote:
This is pretty awesome... I would posibly draw it being windswept the other way!?
Fantastic drawing though, thanks Jun...


As I was thinking, too. But this sure has more drama.

Yup.

Windswept is a very tricky design but fun and challenging to do. IMHO-Character of the tree is more important in design consideration rather than just follow the trunk line direction.
...I am just following and practicing what Robert Steven thought me about windswept design. and I am sure it is a very practical guide in designing windswept and not too hard to follow, even for the non expert level.

regards,
jun Smile

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Re: Collected Grren Beach

Post  DangerousBry on Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:30 pm

Thanks Jun for your attention to delivering a background and understanding to your example. I'm very pleased with your input... Let's hope I can develope the tree to something relative to your inspirations. I'll have to keep this thread in mind and post back in the future!!

Cheers
Bryan

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Re: Collected Grren Beach

Post  Gary Swiech on Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:52 pm

I know the semi cascade style isn't very popular today but I think it would look very good in the semi cascade style.

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Re: Collected Grren Beach

Post  drgonzo on Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:05 pm

Just as an aside, your Beech is potassium deficient.

This is a very common problem I have run into in collecting Beech. It can take them some time to re-establish their root systems after collection, during this time (several years actually) they can have a hard time gaining access to enough K as the element is easily leached from bonsai soil and the root system has been compromised due to collection. K is fairly immobile in soil so it is wherever the roots can find it, less roots means less K. These symptoms can easily be mistaken for Iron but you will find the tree will not respond to Iron treatments..

My experience with Beech has taught me that this is one of their core deficiencies and once the diffused inter veinal chlorosis has occurred it is difficult to remedy. Over time this chronic K deficiency (as it is a Macro element) will stunt the growth and bud formation each year will become less and less vigorous as will the corresponding spring flush as these smaller/weekend buds extend.

The fix for this problem is a K supplement (something like Dyna grow pro-Tek) applied early on in the season can head this off before it begins...And repeated once a month afterwards, until the tree can re-establish itself. Once you can keep most of the leaves deep green all season long then the tree will be strong enough to begin training.

Its taken me 3 years of working with collected Beech to finally figure this little mystery out and I can recognize it instantly when I see it on another Beech. Unfortunately VERY little study has been done regarding Beech nutrient requirements so its up to us "Tinkerers" to figure stuff like this out.

PM me if you need more info I'm glad to help. You have a nice tree there with excellent potential to create something unusual!
-Jay

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Re: Collected Grren Beach

Post  marcus watts on Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:35 pm

just adding ..........in laymans terms the reason Jay has spotted the deficiency in your beech - the leaves are the give away, the slightly darker green leaf centers fading to yellowish on the outside. This is 100% right, and is even more common as an ongoing problem when using the inorganic soils we all love without the correct fertilisers.

Signs like this show the importance of not restyling material that isnt ready yet as the results will be very disapointing when buds fail to appear or strengthen where you need them. several rose feeds have boosted 'k' levels too, so could be worth looking at if you cant find pro tek 0-0-3

cheers Marcus (another tinkerer Cool )




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Re: Collected Grren Beach

Post  drgonzo on Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:58 pm

marcus watts wrote:just adding ..........in laymans terms the reason Jay has spotted the deficiency in your beech - the leaves are the give away, the slightly darker green leaf centers fading to yellowish on the outside. This is 100% right, and is even more common as an ongoing problem when using the inorganic soils we all love without the correct fertilisers.

I also believe this is one of if not THE major reason I run into accounts of folks mentioning that Beech trees will slowly decline and eventually fail after collection as the lack of this vital nutrient and the chronic nature of the deficiency slowly weakens the tree over a few years.

Here too pH is very important. Beech, though tolerant of many soils, has a strong preference for an acidic mix. I have discussed this with Jack Sustic at the national arboretum in DC and he told me all the Beeches there are in a mix of 50/50 akadama and grit. A highly acidic mix.

The use of fertilizers that are high in P can also lead to K deficiency as the plant would prefer to take up P instead of K when possible. In general Beech are highly salt intolerant. I have found I have to measure my fertilizer in drops per gallon in order to correctly feed my Beeches WITHOUT burning their leaves.

-Jay

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Re: Collected Grren Beach

Post  marcus watts on Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:24 am

interesting about the PK relationship Jay....

its funny but i've just checked this thread before dropping in at the hydroponic shop later today to pick up canna PK13/14 and canna boost.

I do have a sly smile when looking at how 'head in the sand' many bonsai growers are, while a small minority are realising how good the range of additives for hydroponic /coaco/clay ball culture really are. The normal customers for these products can measure their results and see the effects of using them but so many bonsai growers dont seem to grasp the indepth horticultural needs of the actual trees, leading to years of average to poor results sometimes.

oh well, i'm off to weed city for me bottles of magic potion hahahaha

cheers marcus

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Beech soil mix

Post  chagoi10 on Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:38 am

Very interesting thread on Beech, I've successfully grown Fagus Sylvatica in pure Kanuma as it was the only inorganic substrate I had available at the time. They all thrived. I was suprised as conventional wisdom at the time said Beech = Alkaline soil. In the south of England there are many places that are pure chalk downland (Burnam Beeches, South Downs etc) and Beech grow there in a very thin topsoil without any issues? The Ph of the soil there couldn't be described as acidic!

I think they are quite adaptable?


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Re: Collected Grren Beach

Post  drgonzo on Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:11 pm

chagoi10 wrote: Beech grow there in a very thin topsoil without any issues? The Ph of the soil there couldn't be described as acidic!

Beech produce fairly shallow root systems, this makes collecting of even large trunked specimens relatively "easy". Also F. Sylvatica is very forgiving of soil pH.

I keep examples of all three of the major Beech species generally used for Bonsai, F. crenata, sylvatica, and grandifolia. It was that last one that wound up being the odd ball in its preference for very acidic conditions. The reason I contacted Jack about it was that the National arboretum in DC was one of the only places I knew for sure F. grandifolia was being kept as bonsai successfully.

I have my Beeches in Kanuma as well, The pH buffering capacity of the soil is of course limited however I find that American Beech produces not only normal white rootlets but also extremely fine sub rootlets (almost like azalea) and the porosity of kanuma allows for these roots to work into and achieve close contact with, the particles themselves. Switching from Turface to Kanuma for that particular Beech brought about significant improvement in the trees vigor.

-Jay

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Re: Collected Grren Beach

Post  chagoi10 on Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:21 pm

Agreed Jay, Kanuma seems just fine for Crenata and Sylvatica in the UK. The free draining and moisture retentive properties work well, I've not grown Grandifolia yet so can't comment on that one. The roots grow through and into the grains and i've also noticed an improvement in the root heath and density, which is reflected in the canopy. I'll be sure to repot before the particles break down as they do with my Satsuki. One other thing I've also noticed is that Vine Weevils (I have a plague of them this year eating all my Rhododendron shrubs in the Garden) seem to avoid Kanuma! No idea why. Maybe its too acidic for them?

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Re: Collected Grren Beach

Post  drgonzo on Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:49 pm

chagoi10 wrote: One other thing I've also noticed is that Vine Weevils (I have a plague of them this year eating all my Rhododendron shrubs in the Garden) seem to avoid Kanuma! No idea why. Maybe its too acidic for them?

I also have the occasional evil weevil in my garden, I actually treated all my Beeches with an Acephate solution some weeks back when I noticed the first tell tale nibble. I will pay closer attention to see if your observation of their dislike for kanuma bears out for me as well

American Beech is of course not native to your area so you would be unlikely to have access to the species and believe me your better off without it Laughing

-Jay

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Re: Collected Grren Beach

Post  DangerousBry on Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:55 pm

Thanks everyone for your interesting and enlightening comments. I will of course be keeping an eye on this one. I also have in my collection a Copper beech which is planted in much the same substrait and depth, on it's second flush of leaves. The soil mix obviously working well...

I thought it quite uncommon for beech to put out a second flush of leaf, It certainly never put out a second flush last year, and This year having had a report.

This one being in first year after collection is being cared for tenderly.

Regards Bryan

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Re: Collected Grren Beach

Post  marcus watts on Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:59 pm

kanuma is the perfect beech soil component - especially when you can get the really good stuff that is 8-20mm particle size in 'rough' looking bags (rather than the posh pre sieved stuff that is too small with nice bonsai pictures on the bag).

I use 50% kanuma and have new root growth circling a 1meter pot in 6 months (this was on properly root pruned crenata treated with canna rhizotonic for 4 weeks). - the group planting is interesting - the main tree is 90cm and has just started showing signs of K depletion as it 2nd flushed new growth while the outer smaller trees are still really deep green. The main tree is pulling more from the pot so has changed colour first.

The Canna pk additive has been applied at proper concentration tonight to saturate the soil, now a very dilute dose will be applied at each watering, not really to do much this year, but to build the trees' concentrations for next year.

Thanks jay for adding your knowledge to the thread - I must admit i have done 2 iron treatments to the big group last month when the leaf margins first faded. The green trees got really green, the main tree never changed !

marcus

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Re: Collected Grren Beach

Post  drgonzo on Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:06 am

marcus watts wrote:

Thanks jay for adding your knowledge to the thread - I must admit i have done 2 iron treatments to the big group last month when the leaf margins first faded. The green trees got really green, the main tree never changed !

marcus

Unfortunately once the Fe chlorosis has become severe enough to be really noticeable it is often difficult to correct such that the effected foliage will resume its normal pigmentation...sometimes a foliar application can help, sometimes it makes things even worse. Potassium deficiency is also like this.

Thats why its important to know which trees will be prone to the deficiency and give them a dose of chelated Iron or Potassium early in the season and of course this knowledge only comes through experience with the tree.

-Jay


Last edited by drgonzo on Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:41 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Collected Grren Beach

Post  drgonzo on Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:10 am

DangerousBry wrote:

I thought it quite uncommon for beech to put out a second flush of leaf, It certainly never put out a second flush last year, and This year having had a report.
Bryan

Bryan,

This is one of the joys of working with F. Sylvatica! It will often put forth a second flush in early summer if it is healthy and well fed.
Be happy and thank the Beech for it's generosity.

Best
-Jay

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Re: Collected Grren Beach

Post  Peter E. on Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:38 pm

drgonzo wrote:
DangerousBry wrote:

I thought it quite uncommon for beech to put out a second flush of leaf, It certainly never put out a second flush last year, and This year having had a report.
Bryan

Bryan,

This is one of the joys of working with F. Sylvatica! It will often put forth a second flush in early summer if it is healthy and well fed.
Be happy and thank the Beech for it's generosity.

Best
-Jay

Beech are very variable.
In 20 years of collecting and growing Beech i have only had one tree that put out a second flush of leaves.
This one did it on a regularly which enabled me to build foliage quickly.
I must say that i prefer the one flush a year as it gives me more time with the other trees.
I think yours would suit a semi cascade although most do not see Beech other than upright.


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Re: Collected Grren Beach

Post  DangerousBry on Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:20 pm

Hi guys....

I took to reporting my beech the other day. There were lots and lots of fibrous roots having been potted in free drain medium after collection. I decided that a more wind swept look would be a better look.
Potted in a home made pot from one of our club members... Sorry no repot pics, it was a race against the light :?




Bryan

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Re: Collected Grren Beach

Post  Gary Swiech on Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:07 am

Keep it simple and put some soil in the mix. You don't need much and it will hold the nutrients much better.

I feed mine with Neptune seaweed, I forget the formulation, but it's a balanced NPK ratio.

I grew my green European from seed collected in Paris, France from seed and they are doing fine.

They also need mychoriza from native stands to thrive.

Not all bonsai need "perfect" inorganic soils. I find beech to be one of them. I use the same soil I use for Acer palmatum.

I also have a purple leaved variety that turns dark green in summer and it gets the same soil and treatment with good results.


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Re: Collected Grren Beach

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