How can you tell?

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Re: How can you tell?

Post  fiona on Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:09 am

If any of the potters are reading this and want to tell me more - all knowledge stored for future use.

Thanks anyway, Alan. I have definitely elevated you to hoi aristoi in my own view.

fiona
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Re: How can you tell?

Post  Stone Monkey on Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:52 am

Hi Fiona

You can usually tell if a pot has been handmade or mass produced. Handmade pots tend to have tell tale signs that they have not been slip cast or press moulded, not saying these are an inferior way of making a pot in anyway before I get berated. Without looking at the pot it is hard to comment on the way the pot was made.

As Alan said sometimes when a pot is slab built, using rolled out slabs, the marks of the material that the slab has been rolled on are left, just a matter of taste I presume. Personally I do not leave these marks on my slabs, prefering to smooth out my slabs by hand removing the pattern imprinted by the canvas of my slab roller.

I will endevour to find a picture of a slab with the said marks on to show you. At work at the moment and the so and so's won't let me upload anything from my "Big Brother" type pc station.

Regards

Andy

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Re: How can you tell?

Post  Stone Monkey on Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:59 am

Just found one on the net

http://www.tokoname.or.jp/bonsai/gallery/73f8.htm

The top of the slab is similar to the marks when a slab is rolled out on to canvas or other like material

Regards

Andy

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Re: How can you tell?

Post  peter krebs on Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:13 pm

Dear Fiona,
hello Alan,
potting on fabric is an individual technique.

Eastern and western potters use this technique for manufacturing pots, in the west it is widely-used.
On elaborate and noble-looking pots the fabric impressions are removed carefully. Even the bottom of such pots is embellished with ornate drainage holes. There are brush, bamboo, full moon, half moon, clover, lotus and ornamental holes.

In this elaborate pot, I have integrated a double bottom with clover holes, just for the beauty of it.


Best regards
Peter

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Re: How can you tell?

Post  Stone Monkey on Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:16 pm

Peter

I LOVE the pot, beautiful Very Happy

Regards

Andy

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Re: How can you tell?

Post  fiona on Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:43 pm

Likewise - that is a smashing pot. (btw just in case of language confusions here, smashing is a colloquial word meaning "very very good" - nothing to do with smashing as in breaking!)

I'm intrigued by this whole process. My only knowledge of the process is from having made two pots of my own at a workshop run by David Jones of Walsall Studio Ceramics. He came along with what I assume you mean by slabs of clay which we then cut into the right shapes using simple templates. There was no sign of a canvas effect so I assume he either smoothed the slabs out first or used some other surface to do the rolling out. (I'm suddenly developing a craving for pastry here Laughing )

The pot I asked about has that kind of "oatmeally" effect which I assume is the pattern of the canvas. Fascinating. Monks - I'm gonna have to come down and watch you in pottering action so I can really get a grasp of all these processes. For example, is slip casting when you put "runny" clay into a mould of some sort? Press mould? much less runny clay pressed into a shape? Am I even close?

fiona
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Re: How can you tell?

Post  Stone Monkey on Thu Jul 30, 2009 2:01 pm

Fiona

I make my slab pots in a similar fashion to David and from what I can remember from seeing David work in the past he does smooth out his slabs. I have on occasion forgotten to smooth mine out and it does give the pot a more rustic look. Your more than welcome to visit the Monkey's den if you come "dahn sarf" Les from the Wirral came down not too long ago.

Your spot on! Slip casting, yes this is runny clay, slip, poured into mould and allowed to dry before opening and then trimming etc. A master has to be made first though and the mould made from the master pot. Press moulding uses slabs or pieces of clay pressed into shape using a mould and then bits added or taken away. The majority my pots are either slab built, coiled or thrown on the wheel and altered. Throwing pots on the wheel is terribly addictive and very theraputic Twisted Evil Whereas some of my accent pots are slabbed, rolled, pinched, coiled, pressed or thrown confused

Love your avatar Razz wonder where that came from.......

Regards

Andy

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Re: How can you tell?

Post  Dale Cochoy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:20 pm

Fiona,
Peter, and others, have made some good points about the 'finishing' of the bottoms of pots. ALL good potters, and lots of ceramic officionados, appreciate a quality finish to the BOTTOMS of pots. Many folks starting out in pottery spend little time finishing bottoms, especially when trimming wheel-thrown pots. A clean, neat and handsome finish on the bottom of a pot is well respected and a sign of a quality pot. Here is a test for you, the next time you are at a bonsai convention and see a potter looking at someone elses pots note how long he looks at it before turning it over and looking at the finish/trimming on the bottom!
I often spend unusual amounts of time
on bottoms of my pots, and often have folks ask why I so often make them so fancy, or, make the INSIDES decorated? All I can tell them is that I love every minute I spend on a pot and its finish. I WANT to MISS them when they are sold. I often tell people that for every pot I work on and finish that I want it to look like it was the only one I finished that week!
Dale













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Re: How can you tell?

Post  fiona on Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:31 pm

Thanks Dale (and all the other contributors) for sharing a few of the tricks of your trade with me. I said in an earlier post that I would surmise that few of us non-potters would begin to imagine the intricacies of your art. It also even further confirms in my mind the nature of the relationship between pot and tree - two pieces of art lovingly created coming together in a perfect synergy.

Your own pots in that last post are simply stunning. As we say in the Gaelic 's math sin which roughly translates as "it's great that" and is (purportedly) the origin of the colloquial word "smashing" I used earlier in the thread.

Many thanks once again.

fiona
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Re: How can you tell?

Post  Dale Cochoy on Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:33 pm

Fiona,
Here are a couple more finished insides.
Dale








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Re: How can you tell?

Post  DWThomas on Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:52 am

Hmmmm -- it's a devious trick to sell more pots. If I owned some of those, I wouldn't want to put soil in them! Very Happy

Plus I'd want to be able to turn some of them over to display the bottoms. Definitely some very nifty work.

DaveT

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Re: How can you tell?

Post  peter krebs on Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:41 am

Hi Dale,
You are an excellent pots-potter, with body and soul, I stand at your side.

Hi Dave,
because you have absolutely right, what do you think why the pots-potter are all so rich.
I have a sign on my door hanging: "Because wealth is closed." thumbs up thumbs up thumbs up

Regards
Peter

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Re: How can you tell?

Post  Dale Cochoy on Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:30 pm

Thank you Peter and Dave.
I like the sign idea Peter.
I've been thinking of a sign that says "I believe in the minimum wage increase" Very Happy
Possibly you need to be American to see the humor? Question

Dale




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Re: How can you tell?

Post  prestontolbert on Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:18 pm

Some of the best Tokoname potters cut their slabs from a large lump of clay using a wire, leaving tiny scratches on the surface of the slab. A Taiwanese potter showed me how to hammer out slabs with a massive wooden mallet. You hammer across the surface of the slab on a concrete floor and lift it from time to time to allow the clay room to move. He was able to make 3/8 inch slabs 3 feet square, that he could carry by the ends like a wet sheet! I've never seen a better slab technique with such simple equipment. My wife throws her slabs on a wheel.

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Re: How can you tell?

Post  peter krebs on Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:38 am

Hello Preston,

Here is an original 100 years old (wooden) clay hammer from China.



For christmas this wooden hammer disappeared in a mysterious way from my studio, I find him again in the kitchen, my wife uses it for the Christmas cookies. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

Best regards
Peter

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Re: How can you tell?

Post  Rob Addonizio on Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:56 pm

Peter,
watch out for that Manganese!

LOL! Razz

I can see it now.. "honey, these cookies are really tasty! Those are chocolate chips I hope!"

Shocked

I couldn't resist Cool

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Re: How can you tell?

Post  prestontolbert on Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:01 pm

Right on, Peter. My friend from Tiawan made a similar one for me. What are the dimensions of yours?

Also, speaking of tools, has anyone seen the tools used by Onggi potters? The "hammer and anvil" are made from fresh green pine and never allowed to dry. Imagine 70 year old tools that have been constantly wet!

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Re: How can you tell?

Post  peter krebs on Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:26 pm

Hello Preston,

Here the dimensions of the hammer.


It is true what you say there are also tools wet, it's like a sauna spoon, which is also always in the water, otherwise it breaks.

Best regards
Peter

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Re: How can you tell?

Post  Rob Addonizio on Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:43 pm

If anyone can find something like this or similar, please let me know the supplier. I was using an old pastry roller until I misplaced it recently. I've been too busy to go on a mad search and it never really worked well anyway.

thanks,
rob (in need of a good pounding) Rolling Eyes Razz

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Re: How can you tell?

Post  kitoi on Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:55 pm

here you go Rob, not as nice as Peter's photo but it will do the trick.
http://www.bigceramicstore.com/supplies/HandbuildingTools.htm

kitoi
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Re: How can you tell?

Post  prestontolbert on Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:39 pm

They aren't hard to make. Just cut one out with a hand or band saw and smooth the handle part with some sandpaper. I made one and added canvas to the face so it wouldn't stick to really wet clay. I sometimes use it to center clay for platters on the wheel. Just use a relatively light wood. You could wear yourself out with an oak hammer! Laughing

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Re: How can you tell?

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