Tips for cutting "V" cuts in a Trunk to bend.

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Tips for cutting "V" cuts in a Trunk to bend.

Post  Jake16 on Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:28 pm

I have this arborvitae that is long fairly straight. I want to put some dramatic movement in the trunk that is not curvy (like wire bending does). I have this general idea of cutting a v into the trunk (2) and bending the two halves together.(3) Then taping/wiring so the to halves don't come apart.(4) Is this how to do it? If not, then how do you, if so, then any tips on success?



Thanks

Jake

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Re: Tips for cutting "V" cuts in a Trunk to bend.

Post  bucknbonsai on Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:35 pm

you may not get enough holding power with that. I tend to use guy wires with LOTS of tension to ensure that even the smallest gap does not exist, otherwise a large portion of the branch would die. If you want lots of sudden direction changes and not many gentle curves, a deciduous species that you can do clip and grow to would be better than the tree you refer to. I only say that as it sounds like you may want to do this technique in multiple locations throughout the tree?

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Re: Tips for cutting "V" cuts in a Trunk to bend.

Post  Jake16 on Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:39 pm

yeah that was my plan, this tree is nothing important and I was going to see if I could successfully do this. I was going to make one v cut, let that heal then cut another one, until I got them movement I wanted.

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Re: Tips for cutting "V" cuts in a Trunk to bend.

Post  Joe Hatfield on Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:50 am

In Nick Lens' book he talks about making these notch grafts with some detail. I recommend the book.

Depending on the thickness of the tree, it could snap even with the notch. Nick recommends something similar to what Buck is detailing. You often have to stretch that tissue above the notch prior to making contact of the 2 cuts. "

Using guy wires, tighten the wires every few days on a warm afternoon."

I haven't done this with arborvitae but I assume it works with them too.

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Re: Tips for cutting "V" cuts in a Trunk to bend.

Post  Jake16 on Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:44 am

Thanks Joe that helps alot

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Re: Tips for cutting "V" cuts in a Trunk to bend.

Post  Ẩn khách on Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:11 pm

Hi jake.
Cutting V can fully succeed. You should cut it at the time of the most healthy plant. And you should not open an angle greater than 30 degrees.

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Re: Tips for cutting "V" cuts in a Trunk to bend.

Post  Jake16 on Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:13 pm

An khách,

Thanks for the reply, you probably just saved a branch or two Smile

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Re: Tips for cutting "V" cuts in a Trunk to bend.

Post  Ẩn khách on Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:25 pm

Oh. You should not trim its affiliates. The remains will help the process of cross-linked two together faster.

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Re: Tips for cutting "V" cuts in a Trunk to bend.

Post  Jake16 on Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:27 pm

oh im not, I was just joking about how I didnt know how extreme of an angle I could cut and your post saved a few (I should of said trees or trunks)

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Re: Tips for cutting "V" cuts in a Trunk to bend.

Post  marcus watts on Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:11 pm

hi,

i have cut 3 shallow V's in a row on an elm, pulled the branch down with a tension wire then wrapped the bent area in wet raffia - perfect healing, very nice bend and a lot less risky than one deep cut.

the other proven method is to hollow out the inside of the tree with a drill bit....you drill in then wiggle it about so the iside is more hollow than the hole you've made. then wrap in very tight wet raffia and make the bend with a tension wire - much less scarring doing this and less damage to the cambium - the bend appears as a kink so very sharp angle change and appearance.

cheers Marcus

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Re: Tips for cutting "V" cuts in a Trunk to bend.

Post  Poink88 on Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:25 pm

marcus watts wrote:
the other proven method is to hollow out the inside of the tree with a drill bit....you drill in then wiggle it about so the iside is more hollow than the hole you've made. then wrap in very tight wet raffia and make the bend with a tension wire - much less scarring doing this and less damage to the cambium - the bend appears as a kink so very sharp angle change and appearance.
I personally prefer this. A lot "safer" if done correctly.

You can do this in 2 different styles.
1. Drill the hole (or a slit) on the inside of the future bend.
2. Drill a through hole (or slit) along the sides of the future bend. On this one, your inside half should go towards the outer half as you bend so you need a bigger gap at the middle. Note that the branch may appear flat (or flatter) at the bend after.

Hope this helps.

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Re: Tips for cutting "V" cuts in a Trunk to bend.

Post  marcus watts on Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:07 am

Poink88 wrote:

You can do this in 2 different styles.
1. Drill the hole (or a slit) on the inside of the future bend.
2. Drill a through hole (or slit) along the sides of the future bend. On this one, your inside half should go towards the outer half as you bend so you need a bigger gap at the middle. Note that the branch may appear flat (or flatter) at the bend after.

Hope this helps.

yes, safer against snapping.....although i've only seen a few pictures on blogs with pines, can you pop up some close up picture of these 2 methods in action so we can see the style of bend it creates on smoother barked trees ?. i've got the elm here with the 3 multi V's and the juniper with the savage bends / no raffia / splintering method. I'll take some pictures tonight and we can add the pictures of all the savage bend methods to the thread and show the actual results. it will make it really useful and interesting.

cheers Marcus

cheers Marcus

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Re: Tips for cutting "V" cuts in a Trunk to bend.

Post  Poink88 on Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:48 pm

marcus watts wrote:
yes, safer against snapping.....although i've only seen a few pictures on blogs with pines, can you pop up some close up picture of these 2 methods in action so we can see the style of bend it creates on smoother barked trees ?
Marcus,
I don't have any. Like you, I just saw pics/tutorials online. Being an engineer, an amateur/hobbyist woodworker, and working in a small (hand made) furniture company... I know a bit about laminated bending (which this is basically). I know these will work and I will use option #2 in bending my junipers next year. I actually plan on doing a twisted cut...unlike a parallel split that you'll get if you just use a branch splitter. It is still in the drawing board... Basketball

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Re: Tips for cutting "V" cuts in a Trunk to bend.

Post  Poink88 on Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:06 pm

By the way, I did the hollowing and V-notch hybrid and it worked very well. It was only an experiment on a 1/2" boxwood branch bent 80*. It remained very healthy and continued shooting new leaves for months but did not fuse yet (I am not sure if it ever will)....after a few months, I removed the (experimental) branch. What I proved is that the technique works even on very brittle subject. I really think the hollowing helped tremendously in this case. Otherwise, I believe the branch would have snapped at the outer bend still despite the notch. JMHO

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Re: Tips for cutting "V" cuts in a Trunk to bend.

Post  Jake16 on Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:23 pm

Thanks everyone for the posts. It has helped a lot. I have just a v cut in a tree that doesnt matter as an experiment so we will see what happens with that

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Re: Tips for cutting "V" cuts in a Trunk to bend.

Post  marcus watts on Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:18 pm

Hi,
as promiced here are a couple of bends.

The first is an elm - the branch had 3 narrow V's cut in the underside, each one about 5mm apart and each passing 2/3rds through the trunk. It was wired down with a tension wire, covered in cut paste and left for a year or two. The reason was to form a horizontal branch from a strong upward growth



This next one is a much easier bend as junipers can take all the splitting, cracking and bending you can throw at them. This time the tree was split with a chainsaw up the middle, the upper portion cut though and the lower section thinned to a bendable thickness, this section was wrapped in raffia, had 4x6mm wires bound along it and it was bent in one go and tied off with a tension wire. this was a totally straight trunk bent about 135 degrees I guess



cheers Marcus

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Re: Tips for cutting "V" cuts in a Trunk to bend.

Post  Jake16 on Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:23 pm

Nice bend on the elm Marcus, I cant even tell that it had v cuts in it. Thanks that is very helpful.

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Re: Tips for cutting "V" cuts in a Trunk to bend.

Post  marcus watts on Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:44 pm

Jake16 wrote:Nice bend on the elm Marcus, I cant even tell that it had v cuts in it. Thanks that is very helpful.

thats ok, you just need to bend carefully and slowly as you cant raffia the branch once the V's are cut. if you feel it start to splinter stop until the next day and then carry on. couple of other little tricks too - a well watered tree will be more brittle than a very dry one and I find an actively growing branch is a bit more brittle than a dormant one

cheers Marcus

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Re: Tips for cutting "V" cuts in a Trunk to bend.

Post  Jake16 on Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:48 pm

Yeah I read about drying out trees before bending them, but about the raffia, I dont have any can I use electrical tape ?

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Re: Tips for cutting "V" cuts in a Trunk to bend.

Post  marcus watts on Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:04 pm

Jake16 wrote:Yeah I read about drying out trees before bending them, but about the raffia, I dont have any can I use electrical tape ?

yes, it might do ok. there is a a version that is not so sticky that is becoming popular too. i'm not sure about the stickyness on the bark when you come to take it off, maybe try to put the bottom layer on sticky side up ?

thinking about it you need to pull it very tight though as electrical tape stretches, and keeps stretching where wet raffia is totally the opposite - it shrinks tighter once it is on. This will mean raffia will hold much tighter than the tapes, which will help stop the cambium from seperating from the heart wood if you bend branches that are actively growing.

cheers Marcus



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Re: Tips for cutting "V" cuts in a Trunk to bend.

Post  Jake16 on Fri Jun 29, 2012 6:18 pm

I totally forgot about that aspect. I guess ill try in on the other arborvitae I have that isnt much to look at and see what happens Smile

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Re: Tips for cutting "V" cuts in a Trunk to bend.

Post  Poink88 on Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:32 pm

Jake16 wrote:Yeah I read about drying out trees before bending them, but about the raffia, I dont have any can I use electrical tape ?
Walmart have a lot for cheap in their hobby section. Raffia is not as stretchable as Marcus stated and even shrink a little as it dries. I use both (raffia and electrical tape) for their unique quality. I also use the green paper like floral tape on cracked bends Embarassed ...as far as I can tell, they work really well.

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Re: Tips for cutting "V" cuts in a Trunk to bend.

Post  Jake16 on Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:36 pm

Poink88 wrote:
Jake16 wrote:Yeah I read about drying out trees before bending them, but about the raffia, I dont have any can I use electrical tape ?
Walmart have a lot for cheap in their hobby section. Raffia is not as stretchable as Marcus stated and even shrink a little as it dries. I use both (raffia and electrical tape) for their unique quality. I also use the green paper like floral tape on cracked bends Embarassed ...as far as I can tell, they work really well.

Thank you, I didnt even think to look in Walmart's arts and crafts section for stuff. On a side note (maybe this should be a different post but) does anyone know if the oven drying clay can make a good bonsai pot?

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Re: Tips for cutting "V" cuts in a Trunk to bend.

Post  Poink88 on Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:07 pm

marcus watts wrote:The first is an elm - the branch had 3 narrow V's cut in the underside, each one about 5mm apart and each passing 2/3rds through the trunk. It was wired down with a tension wire, covered in cut paste and left for a year or two. The reason was to form a horizontal branch from a strong upward growth


AWESOME bend!!! ThumbsUp

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Re: Tips for cutting "V" cuts in a Trunk to bend.

Post  marcus watts on Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:41 am

Poink88 wrote:
AWESOME bend!!! ThumbsUp

thanks Dario Very Happy

its funny how i hadn't looked closely at it for a few years - the bark has formed much thicker and nicer over the cuts too, part of the healing process I guess- they really have totally disappeared. I think the key is to make the whole section totally airtight with some sort of paste covering after bending like this - if one single V cut had dried out it would never had healed so neatly.

cheers Marcus

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Re: Tips for cutting "V" cuts in a Trunk to bend.

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