Pomegranate

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Re: Pomegranate

Post  yogesh on Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:07 am

here are 2 from my collection. Non Bonsai as I m not able to makeout how they can be trained as Bonsai. your suggestions are most welcome
[img][/img][img][/img]

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Pomegranate

Post  bonsaisr on Thu Jan 14, 2010 3:28 pm

Your two trees are the dwarf cultivar, Punica granatum 'Nana.' It usually goes by that name, even though it is often grown from seed, and the seedlings are not always identical. I am ready to give up on the dwarf pomegranate, since it is so much more temperamental than the standard. However, many growers in better climates report success.
I would recommend getting rid of the sharp bends, since this tree does not respond well to wiring. I wish I knew how to do virtuals. Maybe one of our experts will help.
For #1, I would cut off the top where it angles off, leaving the part that curves up to the left. Leave that left part for now to strengthen the trunk, & cut it back later on. I would also cut off the top of the sucker & make a mother-and-son style.
On #2, I would air-layer off everything above that sharp elbow near the bottom. Your next step is to plant both trees in the ground, in the richest soil you can concoct, feeding & watering heavily until they fatten up. If you don't have a backyard available, pot them in large shallow pots in coarse bonsai soil. And pinch, pinch, pinch.
Iris


Last edited by bonsaisr on Thu Jan 14, 2010 3:31 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : To clarify)

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Re: Pomegranate

Post  yogesh on Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:54 am

bonsaisr wrote:Your two trees are the dwarf cultivar, Punica granatum 'Nana.' It usually goes by that name, even though it is often grown from seed, and the seedlings are not always identical. I am ready to give up on the dwarf pomegranate, since it is so much more temperamental than the standard. However, many growers in better climates report success.
I would recommend getting rid of the sharp bends, since this tree does not respond well to wiring. I wish I knew how to do virtuals. Maybe one of our experts will help.
For #1, I would cut off the top where it angles off, leaving the part that curves up to the left. Leave that left part for now to strengthen the trunk, & cut it back later on. I would also cut off the top of the sucker & make a mother-and-son style.
On #2, I would air-layer off everything above that sharp elbow near the bottom. Your next step is to plant both trees in the ground, in the richest soil you can concoct, feeding & watering heavily until they fatten up. If you don't have a backyard available, pot them in large shallow pots in coarse bonsai soil. And pinch, pinch, pinch.
Iris

thanks for the suggestion, just wanted to confirm whether i got u right.
[img][/img][img][/img]

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Re: Pomegranate

Post  JimLewis on Sat Jan 16, 2010 1:25 pm

bonsaisr wrote:For those who want to know more about pomegranate mythology, go here:
http://www.paghat.com/pomegranatemyths.html
Iris

I assume, Iris, that you know by now that the current issue (2009 #4) of International Bonsai is mostly about the pomegranate.

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Re: Pomegranate

Post  Kev Bailey on Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:33 pm

If it were mine I'd grow it on for a couple more years, feeding heavily to thicken the trunk and then chop here. Re-grow as a shohin broom.



Alternatively to get the trunk thick enough for the height you propose to keep, grow it on in a larger pot for five to ten years to get the trunk thick enough.

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Pomegranate

Post  bonsaisr on Sat Jan 16, 2010 2:58 pm

JimLewis wrote:
I assume, Iris, that you know by now that the current issue (2009 #4) of International Bonsai is mostly about the pomegranate.
Thanks for reminding me. I haven't gotten mine yet. I'll have to see what went wrong.
Iris
(copy to Bill)

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Pomegranate

Post  bonsaisr on Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:06 pm

Kev Bailey wrote:If it were mine I'd grow it on for a couple more years, feeding heavily to thicken the trunk and then chop here. Re-grow as a shohin broom.


Sorry to disagree, but if you cut back a dwarf pomegranate that hard, even in India, it would probably die. I wouldn't even do that to a standard, as you can see.
Iris

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Pomegranate

Post  bonsaisr on Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:16 pm

yog wrote:
thanks for the suggestion, just wanted to confirm whether i got u right.
Actually, I would cut it back further, but not as drastically as Kev suggested. What you show will do fine for now. You can always cut back more next year. Most important is to get them into the ground or a grow pot & fatten them up. Look at mine. After 25 years in a greenhouse, caliper is only about an inch. A dwarf cultivar would be even thinner.
Iris

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Re: Pomegranate

Post  Kev Bailey on Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:09 pm

This one of mine, in development in 2002, responded well to a dramatic chop. I developed it further but sold it a couple of years ago.

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Pomegranate

Post  bonsaisr on Wed Aug 04, 2010 2:47 am

Just an update on 'Toyosho.' It has so far survived my bungling ministrations. The seller told me he kept it with the dwarf pomegranates, where the temperature never goes below 45 F (about 7.2 C). So last fall when I brought it in, I put it right under the lights. It grew very well until midwinter (I think it was January), then suddenly shut down & lost most of its leaves, except a few at the top right against the fluorescent tube. I was scared at first, then realized there was nothing wrong, it just went dormant.
The tree sat like that for the rest of the winter. It started growing very slowly in May, and has been growing ever since. I didn't want to cut it back hard, partly because I want to keep the gnarled old branches. With judicious pinching, it has back-budded some. It even grew a few new branches where I actually wanted them. cheers
It is beginning to look respectable & I will post a picture shortly. I don't expect it to bloom this year; time enough for that in the future.
This fall I will let the tree get some light frost & go dormant before I put it under the lights. All the experts say the standard pomegranates prefer a dormancy.
Iris

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Re: Pomegranate

Post  bonsaisr on Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:48 pm



Here is a current picture. It has been growing slowly but steadily all summer. Right now it looks overpotted, but I trust it will fill out. You don't want to underpot a flowering tree. Oddly enough, the roots are vigorous. I cut off the tie-down wires, and it is in there like a rock. I will repot it next spring.
I am planning to remove that high root sticking out in front.
The lower left branch needs to grow. I cut it to promote some secondary shoots. Next year it should fill out some more.
Here is a side view.




Last edited by bonsaisr on Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:57 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Additional information)

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Pomegranate

Post  bonsaisr on Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:11 pm

I was styling this as a twin-trunk. As Reiner Gobel pointed out elsewhere, this is not a kosher twin-trunk. It is a single trunk with a large, low first branch. Now you can see there is a bulge at the base of the branch. What to do to avoid inverse taper? Should I reduce that branch? Should I air-layer the tree just below the bulge? Is that risky?
Should I cut the top part of that branch off?



Should I bend that branch down so that it is more graceful?



Iris

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Pomegranate

Post  bonsaisr on Thu Aug 19, 2010 4:15 pm

One more question. Should I wire the back branch down?



Thanks,
Iris

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Pomegranate

Post  bonsaisr on Fri Oct 15, 2010 3:00 pm

Here it is this fall. It did bloom, much to my surprise. Here is a close-up of one flower, about an inch (2-3 cm) across. My apologies to Dido, but I think the pastel version looks much better, at least on a standard tree, than the violent Punic red-orange. We have had frost, so the pomegranate and olive are in the sunporch. The hardy trees are still outdoors.
If anyone is interested, I will post one more picture when it is completely filled out.
Iris




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Pomegranate

Post  bonsaisr on Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:57 am

I hope I'm not boring you. Rolling Eyes
This fall, I left Toyosho outside until frost (October). Then I put it in the unheated sunporch (along with my olive) until the leaves fell off. At that point, it went into the plant room under lights (November). When it was well sprouted, I repotted it (December). It was in a 9 inch (23 cm) pot. I intended to transfer it to an 8-inch, but as luck would have it, the 8-inch pot was the wrong color. I had a 7-inch (18 cm) pot of turquoise blue. When I unpotted it & shook out the roots, it fit nicely into the 7-inch, as you can see.



Right now it is in bloom with one flower. Very cheerful for January. This sporadic blooming doesn't seem to impair its strength.
There is a problem, which you can't see very well in this picture. At the base of the "character branch," there is a big swelling that causes some inverse taper. I mentioned this before, but nobody responded. I could air layer it, but that seems very drastic, & I would lose that nice basal flare. I would be scared to split the trunk from underneath. Any other suggestions? I will try to scar the bark & see if that helps. Should I just let it alone & be happy as it is?
Iris


Last edited by bonsaisr on Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:16 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Add another comment.)

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Re: Pomegranate

Post  Ravi Kiran on Sat Jan 01, 2011 7:27 am

Hi Iris,

A very beautiful tree indeed that you have. Regarding the Inverse taper, I'd say (like I have said before in some other posts) leave it as it is. I firmly believe that one should look at the overall image of the tree and then take a call on Inverse taper. In the case of your tree the overall composition looks good and hence you can leave the Character Branch with its inverse taper as it is. It has a role of its own in adding to the beauty of the tree. Good to here that your tree is flowering when its snowing outside. I am sure it is adding to the festive cheer.

Warm Regards
Ravi

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Re: Pomegranate

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Sat Jan 01, 2011 11:42 am

Ms. Iris - Happy New Year !!

No you are not boring anyone. I am quietly watching and learning. Pomegranates, large fruited and small fruited, seldom last down here for anything more than a few years. Why ?

I just started a new batch of seedlings to try again.
Wish I had a double form.
Thanks for showing.
Khaimraj

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Pomegranate

Post  bonsaisr on Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:25 pm

Khaimraj Seepersad wrote:Ms. Iris - Happy New Year !!
Pomegranates, large fruited and small fruited, seldom last down here for anything more than a few years. Why ?
Khaimraj
Punica granatum is a subtropical from the Mediterranean. It is hardy to USDA Zone 8, average minimum temperature 10 to 20 F, -12 to -7 C. My experience is that it really needs a winter cool period. I believe you mentioned that you have refrigerator for temperate species. Try wintering a pomegranate there.
For the bump in the trunk, I also thought of air layering only that branch, and planting it next to the main trunk to make a real twin trunk. But I will take the advice to let the poor thing alone.
There was a Nathaniel Hawthorne fable about a man who had a beautiful wife, except she had a birthmark. He obtained a magic potion to remove the birthmark, but just as the birthmark vanished, she died.
Iris

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Re: Pomegranate

Post  paulf on Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:55 pm

Ive ben growing Pomegranate's for some years now - no fatalities yet. but every year they do seem to die back a little during the winter. its taking me a long time to learn how to grow them well and i seem to be learning a little more about them every year.

im ready an old book by kyuzo murata from 1964 that i picked up on amazon. there is a passing reference in there to the fact that if the pomegranate fruits too much it tends to shed some foliage.

from reading about cultivating them in israel i learned that the roots like to breath. they also find that a good dose of nicotine based fertiliser ( bayer provado will do this ) to keep them clean boosts thier growth quite a lot when they are young.

they also seem to need quite a large root system - and deep. when repotting i see that they like to grow thier roots downwards - very few roots in the topsoil - all down in the bottom of the pot. there are several references to them needing a deaper pot than most to accomodate thier roots.

personally i have noticed that they are greedy pigs. several others find this aswell with them. fertilise weekly during the growing season - full strength. balanced or a little extra nitro. ive been using canna nutrients. im going to experiment with vintage bat guano this year.

ive repotted all of mine this year into quite coarse Biosorb ( baked clay ). loads of breathing room for the roots. and deep pots. i really want to have these plants over 3ft tall before i do anythign else with them. i will remove all the fruit this year - or maybe leave 1 for the wife to look at.

P

PS. i keep mine under glass during the winter.

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Re: Pomegranate

Post  Khaimraj Seepersad on Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:33 pm

Paul,

i have enough Punica g. nana, to test Ms. Iris's advice and also enough Punica granatum to do the same. I took the precautions of planting the seeds of the last fruit on my dying nana, and two are especially fast growing. So there will be a hot time in town with all these tests and suggestions.
Thanks to all.
Khaimraj

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Re: Pomegranate

Post  Jeff Lahr on Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:41 pm

Punica g. nana don't seem to know when to bloom or when to loose its leaves. This photo was taken in my growing bed on Jan. 4, 2011 in Santa Maria, CA (Zone 8b). We've had a about six nights below freezing so far this season.


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Pomegranate

Post  bonsaisr on Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:40 am

If anyone would like to try Toyosho, Forestfarm sells it. www.forestfarm.com.
Iris

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Re: Pomegranate

Post  HowardUSA on Tue Apr 12, 2011 2:33 am

Iris,

I have been reading this post since 2009 and very much enjoyed the developmental photos of your Toyosho. It is coming along nicely....good job. I live in South Florida zone 10 and grow 9 varieties of pomegranates. I have two varieties with double apricot pink or salmon pink flowers, Toyosho and Party Dress. The Toyosho rarely sets fruit and is a smaller standard type pomegranate. My Toyosho has never set fruit even when I have tried to pollinate the hermaphrodite flowers (female-perfect flowers) . The male flowers on a pomegranate don't set fruit. The Party Dress has smaller leaves and is actually a real dwarf tree. The leaves on yours look very much like those of a Toyosho in shape and size.

When pomegranates have a dormant period with cold weather even to the point of losing their leaves, they bounce back with leaves faster in the spring and bear more fruit. Pomegranates need from 150 to 200 chill hours (40F) for best fruiting and about 125 days of full sun. Usually one month after leaf drop in the winter the trees will bud out. Cooler/dryer in the winter but don't let completely dry out. I have read that pomegranates should be repotted in late winter or just before budding out. In South Florida repotting is done any time of the year. It will reduce a lot of growing problems if pomegranates are in bonsai pots that are a little deeper than usual.

You brought up the question of watering pomegranates. Pomegranates are called xeromesophyte plants (both sesophytes and andxerophytes) because in cultivation with sufficient water they yield large crops of fruit (sesophytes-plants in areas of medium rainfall) and in nature adapted to dry environments with water shortage (xerophytes-dry environment plants with water shortage). In my environment I water them well and let them dry out a little before I water them again. I don't let them dry out completely but allow them to dry out a little so the roots can breath/the opposite of being flooded. In the spring and fall here in South Florida, it usually means watering every two days but in the summer it means watering everyday. Every environment is different. Damp but not wet is what I attempt. Pomegranates don't like to go to bed with wet feet. Wet feet cause root rot, fungal problems and leaf problems Striking a balance between not enough water and too much water can be a bit tricky but is very important.

Severe fruit drop during the plant's juvenile period (3-5 years) is not uncommon. Mature trees seem to set and hold fruit better than younger trees. Fruit drop is aggravated by practices favoring leafy growth such as over-fertilization and excess watering. If you partially shade the bonsai tree and keep it slightly dry before mid-season, the tree is encouraged to set flowering shoots.

Sorry I became so long winded. Did I mention I like fruiting bonsai? jejejeje




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Pomegranate

Post  bonsaisr on Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:03 am

Thank you for the information. I gave mine a rest, but I don't think it was long enough. It looks ratty right now, but it is almost time to go outside, first on the porch in a sheltered area.
Iris

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Re: Pomegranate

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