common name

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common name

Post  Garykk on Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:14 pm

Where did Conocarpus erectus get that name buttonwood? Probably the first yamadori sp. to be collected down in these parts of the World.

__gary



Last edited by Garykk on Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:36 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: common name

Post  JimLewis on Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:15 pm

It has reddish, buttonlike fruits.

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Re: common name

Post  Garykk on Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:50 am

Right on Jim.
Now, you tell me there is no naturally shaped trees that resemble bonsai. This pic is for one of my favorite European bonsai people.

__gary


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Re: common name

Post  Rob Kempinski on Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:48 pm

I believe it is due to the fruit which are little fuzzy buttons. But I also heard that in the 1800s that the wood was used to make buttons for clothing but that sounds weak to me.

Garykk wrote:Right on Jim.
Now, you tell me there is no naturally shaped trees that resemble bonsai. This pic is for one of my favorite European bonsai people.

__gary


Gary, I think you have it backwards. There are bonsai that resemble naturally shaped trees. The trees existed well before the bonsai. A naturally shaped/contorted/distorted/dwarfed tree does not make it a bonsai. It needs the hand of man and a pot for that. After all, bonsai is an art and art requires the human interpretation of another human's work, otherwise it is just nature. (BTW nature isn't too bad either.)

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Re: common name

Post  Garykk on Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:11 pm

Touche Rob! There is a little "the rest of the story" that needs to be filled in on this one. I will try to find it later. Good point never the less.
PS. you left out naturally 'windblown" lol's and I pass on the wood button theory. They would stain your white silk shirt.

__gary

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Re: common name

Post  jrodriguez on Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:01 pm

Gary,

Nice pic!!!! Have you noticed the genetic variations present in most of the conocarpus that come from the keys? In the local bonsai shows in Puerto Rico, I often can tell whether a tree is local or imported from the Florida. In the last two bonsai conventions (BCI and WBFF), the conocarpus bonsai that won awards were claimed to be from local material, but in fact both were purchased from Mary Madison. Prior knowledge and the color of the leaf petiole gave them away (plus the lack of styling knowledge of the owner).

Kind regards,
Jose Luis

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Re: common name

Post  Garykk on Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:42 pm

Local genetic variation yes. I don't think I have seen a Ce from Puerto Rico Jose Luis but interesting story.

Touching again on the rest of the story. Does a bonsai look like a tree....does a tree look like a bonsai? I was told by a prominent European bonsai grower the following in so many words.
Due to my (me) bonsai background, our vision of real trees is distorted.

An example of how corrupted bonsai folks are in their vision.

Tree (shown below) is universes away from resembling a natural tree...not even an abstraction of it.

What do you think?


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Re: common name

Post  jrodriguez on Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:14 pm



Gary,

Attached you'll find an image of a casuarina trained to resemble a huge tropical tree. It belongs to Mr. Wu Tung Tai, a young artist from Pindong, Taiwan.

The tree you posted belongs to Mr. Henky Wahyu of Jakarta, Indonesia. I have seen the tree in person and it is huge. Although quite beautiful, I concurr that it does not resemble a natural casuarina. Natural casuarina have incredible upward growth, closely emulated by Mr. Wu's tree. Even though the foliage does not truly resemble the essence of a true size casuarina, the artist does capture the nature of the species in its branch structure.

Notice the trunk/ branch structure ratio. As demostrated by Mr. Wu's bonsai, the foliage volume is quite bigger, thus giving the illusion of a huge tree. On the contrary, the tree you posted, although it has a huge trunk and because of the way the foliage masses are arranged, it depicts the image of a young tree. The trunk does display age, but the triangular silhouette is reminiscent of a young pine tree. Also, the branches do not have good proportion in relationship to the girth of the trunk.

By the way, these were the arguments i gave when I had the opportunity to judge this tree in the 9th ASPAC in Bali, Indonesia. MR. Cheng Cheng Kung concurred.

Taiwanese artist have a saying: "Before we made bonsai, now we make trees"

I truly believe that the essence of this statement, if considered seriously, will open a new world in bonsai creation.

Kind regards,
Jose Luis

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Re: common name

Post  Garykk on Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:49 pm

I am like a kid in a candy store with this material . I love this part of bonsai. Just when you think you know it all, new frontiers emerge Jose Luis. Thanks! Mr. Tai's tree is very believable. Say goodbye to moyogi. Did I say that?

__gary

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Re: common name

Post  jrodriguez on Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:11 pm

Gary,

I think that it is possible for everyone to gather information from all sources and make our own conclusions. Moyogi style trees are beautiful in their own right. One has only the duty to build your own preferences.

Kind regads,
Jose Luis

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Re: common name

Post  Garykk on Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:39 pm

Canopy size in relation to trunk. I am all over the place with this one. Ancient, fluted, gnarly trunks with tiny 'young tree' foliage triangles perched on top. Indeed a paradox but looks good, big impact design but is it true to 'look like a tree' thing?
Now that I got the nerve and chopped canopies back for the "in" look, I wish I had them back for the "old" tree look. It never ends............

__gary

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Re: common name

Post  jrodriguez on Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:50 pm

Gary,

In summary, the Casuarina you posted looks like a bonsai, Mr. Wu's looks like a tree.

Kind regards,
Jose Luis

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Re: common name

Post  gordonb on Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:01 pm

Rob Kempinski wrote:I believe it is due to the fruit which are little fuzzy buttons. But I also heard that in the 1800s that the wood was used to make buttons for clothing but that sounds weak to me.

This would not surprise me at all, as box have hard wood with a tight grain, and would be useful in the manufacture of buttons or toggles. Rolling Eyes Question

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Re: common name

Post  Rob Kempinski on Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:28 pm

jrodriguez wrote: In summary, the Casuarina you posted looks like a bonsai, Mr. Wu's looks like a tree.

Or a clump of broccoli. Very Happy Sorry Jose I couldn't resist.
But have you ever noticed how a sprig of broccoli does look like a small tree -in a pot perhaps a mame bonsai Question Question

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Re: common name

Post  jrodriguez on Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:20 pm

Rob,


Funny!!! I think that broccoli is a perfect example to emulate when creating parts of our bonsai. Rather than having a very tight structure all over the canopy of our trees, we can give them variation,. For example, some of the leaves can be tight while other parts of the tree can be a little clear, thus contributing to a better three-dimensional feature on our trees.

On another note, sometimes Itoigawa Shimpaku does look like broccoli!!!!

Kind regards,
Jose Luis

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Re: common name

Post  bumblebee on Sat Jul 25, 2009 7:12 pm

Every little kid in the world (Ithink) knows that broccoli is like little green trees. Their mamas tell them so to make them want to eat broccoli! thumbs up

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Re: common name

Post  NeilDellinger on Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:07 pm

Good topic and information to consider. I am not sure we all think the way Jose Luis is suggesting while evaluating a tree. We should though, regardless of whether we are judges or simply enjoying the tree.

Thanks Jose for the insight.

Neil

I used to get my son to eat his broccoli by pretending he was a giant munching down trees. Now he loves bonsai, he always seems to get the munchies though when he is watching me pinch my junipers. Now, I know why I do not let him prune. Very Happy

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Re: common name

Post  fiona on Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:08 pm

Actually, I have to say, when I first saw Niwaki trees, I thought they looked like very large stalks of broccoli. I had to suspend disbelief before continuing. Very Happy

bumblebee wrote:Every little kid in the world (Ithink) knows that broccoli is like little green trees. Their mamas tell them so to make them want to eat broccoli!
My friend's smarta*** 5-year old came up with the reasoning that since she wouldn't ask him to go and eat a tree why should he eat broccoli? You can't fault the logic! She gave up and tried cauliflower instead which he ate because it wasn't green and therefore he wasn't 'harming the plants'.

Guys, so far everyone has spelled "broccoli" correctly which is amazing as it high up the top twenty of most frequently mis-spelled English words.

It's a low-news day today when the only posts in hours are about brassicas. Laughing


Last edited by fionnghal on Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:10 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : I didn't have my nap today)

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Re: common name

Post  AlainK on Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:43 pm

Broccoli are very good examples of fractals.

I don't like junipers that look too much like a fractal image.

Most olive trees trained as bonsai look like junipers.

Olive-trees that look like broccoli are probably Italian...

Hmmm, tomatoes full of sun from the garden with fresh broccoli and basil on top, with olive oil and balsamic vinegar, I like bonsai!

What a Face

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Re: common name

Post  fiona on Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:55 pm

Oh man! You just made me very very HUNGRY!!!!

I just Googled fractals. I wish I hadn't. It's maths and I don't do maths. Fractals involve a whole new language to the extent that I don't know if I'm in the Hausdorff Dimension or the Twilight Zone! I do know that too much in my life happens stochastically. alien

As I said, it's a low news day on the bonsai front today. Could someone at least post a pic of a bonsai that looks like a vegetable - broccoli or otherwise - so we can get a discussion going.

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Re: common name

Post  Smithy on Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:23 am

Fractals can be a lot of fun. I used to make a living selling fractal clothing.
http://www.spacetribe.com/shop/uv-wallhangings-c-99.html

Fractals are everywhere ,from looking at the coastline to looking at ferns.When you look at a mountain covered with trees and then you zoom in bit by bit until your looking at an individual tree ,its the same pattern. Patterns of nature.

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Re: common name

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