Tokoname Pot w/o chop marks?

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Tokoname Pot w/o chop marks?

Post  Poink88 on Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:51 pm

I bought five (5) USED but in good condition bonsai pots recently which the vendor claimed are all Tokoname but only 2 have chop marks. I think the price is reasonable (if not cheap at $153.00 for all 5) so I bought them. Quality looks solid and feels good.

Brown Unglazed Rectangle - 12" x 9" x 4"
Brown Unglazed Rectangle - 9.5" x 6" x 3"
Cream Glazed Rectangle - 8" x 6" x 2" (w/ chop mark)
Brown Unglazed Hexagon - 8" x 3". (w/ chop mark)
Green Glazed Rectangle - 11" x 8" x 3.75"

I am just wondering if un-marked pots from Tokoname is common or really made.











Your thoughts?



Last edited by Poink88 on Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:41 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Tokoname Pot w/o chop marks?

Post  cbobgo on Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:14 pm

I'm no expert, but I don't think there are very many $30 Tokoname pots, unless they are very small. I think these are not likely to be Tokaname. Posting pictures would be helpful.

- bob

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Re: Tokoname Pot w/o chop marks?

Post  Poink88 on Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:37 pm

cbobgo wrote:I'm no expert, but I don't think there are very many $30 Tokoname pots, unless they are very small. I think these are not likely to be Tokaname. Posting pictures would be helpful.
Bob,

I know, that is why I bought them (I am a bargain hunter) Wink . I forgot to mention that these are USED. At the very least I got 2 w/ chop marks and those alone probably is worth what I paid for the lot. I will try to snap and post pics tonight.

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Re: Tokoname Pot w/o chop marks?

Post  Poink88 on Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:59 pm

cbobgo wrote:...I don't think there are very many $30 Tokoname pots, unless they are very small.
Bob,

FYI, I actually bought several Tokoname pots with chop marks much earlier for $15.00 each Twisted Evil It is from a local hobbyist who stopped and the pots were being sold by his family. It is also from her that I got a 5 piece Masakuni set for $100.00 w/ 2 free bonsai books.

I guess my message is, there are deals out there (though far in between).

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Re: Tokoname Pot w/o chop marks?

Post  Billy M. Rhodes on Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:08 pm

A pot will frequently have two sets of marks on the bottom. A potter's signature and a kiln mark/stamp. Lots of pots have kiln marks/stamps, including Chinese pots.
There are sites that show some marks that might help with ID. There are also list members who are serious about all this and might help if you have photos. I rubbed chalk on the bottom of some pots to make the marks show up. I will try to find the reference to my post on the pots I brought back from Japan last fall.

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Re: Tokoname Pot w/o chop marks?

Post  Billy M. Rhodes on Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:13 pm

http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t8704-pots-from-tokoname

This is the discussion of the pots I brought back last fall.

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Re: Tokoname Pot w/o chop marks?

Post  Russell Coker on Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:54 pm



Dario,

There are many "Tokoname" pots that aren't marked. They are mostly mass produced and used as growing pots. They are fine for the local show at the mall, but not for any fine display. Good bonsai go in good pots, not unmarked mass production.

In the Tokoname catalog, the Yuyaku or co-op, there is everything from junk to just about as good as you get.

Obviously, pictures help.


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Re: Tokoname Pot w/o chop marks?

Post  LSBonsai on Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:56 pm

I read somewhere that sometimes pots are produced in Tokoname in sets (i.e. three matching pots of different sizes), and that some of these are not stamped.

Not sure if its true, but for what its worth I have a few excellent quality unmarked pots. One I'm pretty sure is from tokoname as I have seen the exact one being sold by an online retailer. But really... does it matter? If they are attractive and fine quality, it makes me happy.

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Re: Tokoname Pot w/o chop marks?

Post  Russell Coker on Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:00 am

LSBonsai wrote:I read somewhere that sometimes pots are produced in Tokoname in sets (i.e. three matching pots of different sizes), and that some of these are not stamped.

Not sure if its true, but for what its worth I have a few excellent quality unmarked pots. One I'm pretty sure is from tokoname as I have seen the exact one being sold by an online retailer. But really... does it matter? If they are attractive and fine quality, it makes me happy.

It may not be Tokoname. Show it off.

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Re: Tokoname Pot w/o chop marks?

Post  LSBonsai on Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:17 am

No probs...

The elm below is planted in the unmarked pot which I am pretty sure is from Tokoname. It is a well made pot but almost certainly "mass produced", although is not a poured pot. Sorry, this is the only pic I have of it at the moment. I bought it from an old bonsai friend who said he picked it out of the tokoname catalog when the Toronto club made a mass order a couple of decades ago:



This auction is for a very similar pot which is also unstamped: http://www.ebay.com/itm/XL-Tokoname-Bonsai-Pot-22-5-x-15-2-x-2-2-59E37-20-/270837690857?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f0f2f31e9

A few months ago she had the identical pot as mine listed, also unstamped. In the description, she says all pots are tokoname and unmarked ones were part of a set. Not sure if its true, but I ahve no reason to not believe her. Very nice seller, I bought a lovely yamafusa from her awhile ago.

Below are pics of one of my favourite pots which I've posted here before... you've seen it Russell. Very high quality (IMO), but unmarked. I bought it in Japan, but have no idea in what region it was made.





Neither of these pots are particularly amazing and a pot collector wouldn't go gaga over them, but they are still well made and pretty attractive, especially the second now that it has some patina.

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Re: Tokoname Pot w/o chop marks?

Post  Russell Coker on Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:05 pm




Ryan, where are you?

I can understand the inexpensive mass produced pots not being marked, but who is making and not signing these better quality pots?

LS, the pot in your link is beautiful but I'd NEVER pay that much for a pot I can't identify. Just me, I guess. That seller has nice pots, but I'm shocked at the prices considering the fine quality pots for sale on ebay now. Even with the shipping from Japan, you can get older (as in with patina), high end pots much cheaper. The best part is that many of these pots aren't in catalogs and the only way to get them would be to go to Japan.

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Re: Tokoname Pot w/o chop marks?

Post  Andre Beaurain on Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:00 pm

I'm with you Russel,
I cant believe how much people pay for unmarked pots.
With me there is always a pot fatality, a storm, a baboon, a chicken... and I will flipp out every time such an expensive breaks.
So my trees live in mass produced pots, for now.
I do have some designer pots, OK only one, but it lives alone indoors. Sad. Like the crown yewells.. hi hi hiihihihi

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Re: Tokoname Pot w/o chop marks?

Post  Poink88 on Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:43 pm

I wasn't able to take pics but got the vendor pics posted at the OP. What do you think?

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Re: Tokoname Pot w/o chop marks?

Post  Russell Coker on Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:56 am



I'd like to see the other chop. These are common slip mould pots, Dario.

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Re: Tokoname Pot w/o chop marks?

Post  Poink88 on Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:14 am

I am out of town now but should be able to get a pic of the other stamp next week.

I know these are lower end pots but seem to be good quality never the less so I am happy. Should last with proper care though not show worthy. None of my trees are even ready for these anyway Very Happy

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Re: Tokoname Pot w/o chop marks?

Post  marcus watts on Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:21 am

Dario !

you are falling into the trap of buying everything you dont need Very Happy

if you'd added the $158 to the black pine budget you'd have a reasonable bonsai rather than looking at chopping a normal landscape tree that will need 10 years work to look the same cheers Smile

i think these are probably chinese production line pots as 1000's of trees come into the nurseries here in pots just like these, - but you may get one good one from 5. The presence of a stamp is no clue these days - I spent a few years thinking all my stamped pots were special ones, turns out modern china use very japanese looking stamps now - Even a top end seller once said to me "dont chip the pot, its a stamped tokoname" when i bought a tree but as the large tree (30" satsuki) and pot were £300 it seeemed unlikely.....the pot was modern chinese Rolling Eyes but still nice enough.

think I must 'save for pine tree, save for pine tree, save for pine tree' not buy 8" pots !!!! Very Happy

have fun,

Marcus


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Re: Tokoname Pot w/o chop marks?

Post  Guest on Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:48 am

I found this awesome 42 cm. older pot in Japan. The patina is flawless....I could not care less if the pot had chopmarks, or not, I just wanted it ( it had no chopmarks )....Because of the missing chopmarks, was I able to have the price lowered quit a lot...not fair Smile






This one.... A round uneven handmade, vintage Tokoname, 14 cm wide... I bought it because of the chopmarks.... Soon I found the chopmarks only is a small part of this awesome pot...the collour of the glaze, the patina....I love everything about this pot. It is the first time, I bought a pot without having a plan of ever placing a tree in it. I stays in the house as a piece of art.




Kind regards Yvonne

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Re: Tokoname Pot w/o chop marks?

Post  Poink88 on Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:17 pm

I love the 2nd one Yvonne! Thanks for sharing.

Marcus, Yes, I am amassing pots because I will need some in the future. I have 90 plants as of last count and I am sure I can find at least one out of that to fit each of these five pots. They will probably not be the best fit for my trees but beggars cannot be choosers. I think these are good enough for the price.

As for the pine...I understand what you are saying and I might get a descent one in the future. Yesterday, we bought the JBP I spoke of and is home now. The "suckers" are actually low branches but (sadly) damaged by the over enthusiastic person repotting and loading it in my vehicle Sad . We had to repot to make it fit. I know I should have done it myself but it was 106*F and we have another 150 miles to go. Can't blame him because of the tight space and size. I will most likely try grafting on this and use it as a learning tool/tree.

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Re: Tokoname Pot w/o chop marks?

Post  lordy on Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:33 pm

Poink88 wrote:Marcus, Yes, I am amassing pots because I will need some in the future. I have 90 plants as of last count and I am sure I can find at least one out of that to fit each of these five pots. They will probably not be the best fit for my trees but beggars cannot be choosers. I think these are good enough for the price.
Dario, if I recall correctly, you've said that you are newish to bonsai, and I also recall seeing your shelves of material in plastic tubs. You spoke of multiple collections that you have done, indicating that these trees are far from "finished". If you want these trees to develop as rapidly as I sense, then a bonsai pot is not where you want them, as I am sure you are aware. Marcus may be right about the best places to put your money. Just a thought.

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Re: Tokoname Pot w/o chop marks?

Post  Poink88 on Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:12 pm

[quote="lordy"]
Poink88 wrote:Dario, if I recall correctly, you've said that you are newish to bonsai, and I also recall seeing your shelves of material in plastic tubs. You spoke of multiple collections that you have done, indicating that these trees are far from "finished". If you want these trees to develop as rapidly as I sense, then a bonsai pot is not where you want them, as I am sure you are aware. Marcus may be right about the best places to put your money. Just a thought.
You are right and they will stay in the training pots for years until ready. Having some pots now (the way I see it) doesn't hurt though (if bought in a bargain). Whether investing the money on a tree now (rather than on a pot) is better or not, I am not sure. A pot can break but a tree can die as well.

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Re: Tokoname Pot w/o chop marks?

Post  Ryan B on Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:37 pm

Hello all.
Many Tokoname pits are not marked t'all, as Russell and others have indicated, and while it's rare, even some pots from good makers aren't stamped. I have 1 Ikkou given to me as a gift that was purchased directly from Kazuhiro San at the kiln, that is unmarked, and another Ikkou I picked up on a Japanese auction site that is unmarked. That being said, I do believe this seller had SOME Tokoname pots for sale, but some are questionable. They weren't purchased directly from Tokoname, as there are price tags on the bottom(at least the 100$ Yamaaki I bought had this $25 price tag on it...)
So I think it's iffy that the unmarked pots are Tokoname. That being said, unmarked Tokoname pots aren't worth any more than simliar quality mass produced Chinese pots, so, does it matter? Unless it has Patina, which is valuable for itself whatever type of pot it's on, I think not!
Ryan
http://japanesebonsaipots.net/

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Re: Tokoname Pot w/o chop marks?

Post  Ryan B on Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:43 pm

And Dario,
That last one with the Chop looks to be Shozan to me.
And Yvonne,
I think this pot with the external chops is actually Teizan Shinano, not from Tokoname, but Seto.

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Re: Tokoname Pot w/o chop marks?

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