"That" pine-question... Candle pruning scots pine

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"That" pine-question... Candle pruning scots pine

Post  Ingvar Nilsson on Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:00 pm

Hi,

I finally need to ask THE PINE QUESTION... Embarassed

I have really tried to figure this out but every book says different and it's the same with the blogs and web articles and forum posts.
Please have a look at my pic:


I realize I need to snip 'em off. Medium first, then Large two weeks later. Don't touch the small weak ones...

1: Is it at this time or do I wait untill the needles are fully extended?
2: Do I cut it all off or is it only 2/3 that i'm supposed to cut?

Thank you in advance!

Ingvar Nilsson
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Re: "That" pine-question... Candle pruning scots pine

Post  Poink88 on Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:33 pm

Not sure if JBP training methods are applicable to Scots Pine (being 2 leaf as well). If it is, check this...
http://www.nebaribonsai.com/Nebari_Bonsai_112109/Projects.html
especially the Training JBP (in PDF)

http://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/category/japanese-black-pines/
Check the June 4, 2012 and May 8, 2012 entries as well

By the way, Brian Van Fleet is a member here as well.

Poink88
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Re: "That" pine-question... Candle pruning scots pine

Post  Ingvar Nilsson on Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:19 pm

Poink88 wrote:Not sure if JBP training methods are applicable to Scots Pine (being 2 leaf as well). If it is, check this...
http://www.nebaribonsai.com/Nebari_Bonsai_112109/Projects.html
especially the Training JBP (in PDF)

http://nebaribonsai.wordpress.com/category/japanese-black-pines/
Check the June 4, 2012 and May 8, 2012 entries as well

By the way, Brian Van Fleet is a member here as well.

Great links! Bookmarked!

The thing I still don't get is why the candles are cut in spring and then the new growth is cut again in early summer? Why cut in spring if you are cutting it all of a month later anyway?

What am I missing?

Ingvar Nilsson
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Re: "That" pine-question... Candle pruning scots pine

Post  Poink88 on Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:27 pm

So you get 2 sets of branching in one season...developing your ramification twice as fast.

FYI, you do not cut it all off in summer. Please read the write-up again.

Poink88
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Re: "That" pine-question... Candle pruning scots pine

Post  Ingvar Nilsson on Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:49 pm

Poink88 wrote:So you get 2 sets of branching in one season...developing your ramification twice as fast.

Ok, cool. I don't think my climate would allow that on sylvestris. Maybe with a pre-season sneak start with heat beads or similar.

Do the new budding start at the cut on the candle? So you get first flush from the "autumn"-buds. These grow into candles that are cut partly. And then you get new buds at the cut, who are allowed to grow untill mid summer (jbp). Then they are removed completely for a weakened third flush. And on the top of these, the new "autumn"-buds appear? And these buds are reduced to pairs? -and then you repeat this with next year growth cycle?

Ingvar Nilsson
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Re: "That" pine-question... Candle pruning scots pine

Post  will baddeley on Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:28 pm

What is the purpose of your pruning Ingvar. Is it to promote back budding or as a maintenance technique?

will baddeley
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Re: "That" pine-question... Candle pruning scots pine

Post  Ingvar Nilsson on Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:57 pm

will baddeley wrote:What is the purpose of your pruning Ingvar. Is it to promote back budding or as a maintenance technique?
Hi Will,
I don't have any trees even close to a finished state. I have all my trees in big pots with fast draining soil and I'm fertilizing heavily. At this time my main goal would be the back budding. How do the techniques for back budding differ from maintenance techniques?

Ingvar Nilsson
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Re: "That" pine-question... Candle pruning scots pine

Post  will baddeley on Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:21 pm

Hello Ingvar. For back budding with sylvestris nothing is done to the candles until they have opened and hardened off at the end of July/ beginning of August. The candles are then cut back leaving 4 pairs of needles and the tree is fed strongly from then on. The suns strength is still strong enough that the tree receives plenty of light and combined with the pruning and feeding will promote the strongest back budding. Do not perform this every year as the natural needle shed of three year old needles will soon leave you with few needles to help the tree grow. As the tree buds back and those extensions become strong and extend well, you can then prune back whole sections of branch. Hope this makes sense.

will baddeley
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Re: "That" pine-question... Candle pruning scots pine

Post  marcus watts on Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:30 pm

hi,
based on the shorter potential growing season where you are, and that you want mostly back budding you have 2 initial choices - the one you list, or cut all at the same time but cut medium off at the base and strong with a 3-4mm stubb - this has same effect.

this makes lots of buds (often 5+ on terminals) at the cut and some back buds. Rub or pinch off all but 2 buds from the end - this weakens potential end growth so back buds develop into shoots. you may find many of these buds do not open until next spring in Sweden - let them strengthen and carry on repeating year after year. Eventually cut branches back to these inner shoots and regrow to desired size

let any branches grow that you want longer, then make them bud backwards.

there are many methods you can choose - pick the one you can do perfectly and stick with it rather than mixing them up though.

good luck

marcus

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Re: "That" pine-question... Candle pruning scots pine

Post  will baddeley on Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:22 pm

"this makes lots of buds (often 5+ on terminals) at the cut and some back buds. Rub or pinch off all but 2 buds from the end" This sounds like JBP to me and not Sylvestris Marcus. Not often you see 5 buds on a sylvestris unless it's a strong straight leader or seedling. The side branches are 3 at most.

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Re: "That" pine-question... Candle pruning scots pine

Post  Ingvar Nilsson on Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:57 pm

will baddeley wrote:Hello Ingvar. For back budding with sylvestris nothing is done to the candles until they have opened and hardened off at the end of July/ beginning of August. The candles are then cut back leaving 4 pairs of needles and the tree is fed strongly from then on. The suns strength is still strong enough that the tree receives plenty of light and combined with the pruning and feeding will promote the strongest back budding. Do not perform this every year as the natural needle shed of three year old needles will soon leave you with few needles to help the tree grow. As the tree buds back and those extensions become strong and extend well, you can then prune back whole sections of branch. Hope this makes sense.

Thanks Will,
Yes this makes sense. First build up strength and then a drastic cut back to force back budding. I don't want to do any needle plucking in fall with this technique, right?

Ingvar Nilsson
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Re: "That" pine-question... Candle pruning scots pine

Post  Ingvar Nilsson on Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:45 pm

marcus watts wrote:
there are many methods you can choose - pick the one you can do perfectly and stick with it rather than mixing them up though.

good luck

marcus
There sure are.
I'm gonna go with Wills advice for now.

I think the books and guides focus too much on the energy balance. I would like to see an article about the development of a single shoot. It would make the growth principles much clearer. If I haven't found one in three years I'll write one myself. Very Happy

Ingvar Nilsson
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Re: "That" pine-question... Candle pruning scots pine

Post  will baddeley on Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:11 pm

" I don't want to do any needle plucking in fall with this technique, right?"

I used to needle pluck but now only cut the needles as this is less likely to harm the buds at the base of the sheath and this is only performed when I am wiring. The more needles you have on the branch, the stronger the budding in needled areas when trimmed in August.

will baddeley
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Re: "That" pine-question... Candle pruning scots pine

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