Re: Shimpaku Value ?

Rick Moquin Mon Jul 20, 2009 12:28 am

Lee Kennedy wrote:Without the benefit of a other pic it aint a tanuki,they are never this good and are commonly done by beginners.Looking at the live veins and branching it is quite obviously a mature tree.
This would retail with a upper 4~near 5 figure price tag in europe,assuming it had a bit of history,i've seen much worse with bmw 3 series price tags attatched

I'm going to go out on a limb and refute your statement. Tanukis if done properly are very convincing and undiscernible to all but the experienced eye.

vaiojoe Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:09 am

The tree has not been grafted at anytime. It was collected outside Nagano, Japan in the Hotakadake mountains.

The post was about the sale of similar trees in the International retail market.

Lee Kennedy Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:20 am

Rick Moquin wrote:
Lee Kennedy wrote:Without the benefit of a other pic it aint a tanuki,they are never this good and are commonly done by beginners.Looking at the live veins and branching it is quite obviously a mature tree.
This would retail with a upper 4~near 5 figure price tag in europe,assuming it had a bit of history,i've seen much worse with bmw 3 series price tags attatched
I'm going to go out on a limb and refute your statement. Tanukis if done properly are very convincing and undiscernible to all but the experienced eye.

Show them here then.

vaiojoe Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:28 am

Rob Kempinski Mon Jul 20, 2009 12:51 pm

Trees imported to the USA that long ago have some value. You will need some proof of its provenance to maximize its value and at least to counter the theme that it is a phoenix graft or tannuki.

As for the actual market value, alas the bonsai market in the US is not nearly as developed as in Asian countries. We seem to suffer from a rash of bottom feeders, however a few wealthy patrons of the art are starting to appear. Even so bonsai as art does not yet seem to command the prices that other fine art does and not what bonsai in Asia attains. To maximize its value you might be able to sell this tree to a collector from abroad. The one live vein that we can see in the photo runs in a fairly straight line and that is not as desirable as a live vein that darts around the tree. The nebari appears severely one sided I'd say in the US you'd be lucky to get $5000 for it.

If it were styled professionally into a modern design, the value would go up some, probably not much in the US but more to foreign buyer.

It's a nice tree and it deserves to be styled - at a minimum the deadwood needs to be worked so that it will remain preserved. Good luck with it and let's hope your insurance policy on it is never exercised.

Garykk Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:22 pm

Lee Kennedy wrote:
Rick Moquin wrote:
Lee Kennedy wrote:Without the benefit of a other pic it aint a tanuki,they are never this good and are commonly done by beginners.Looking at the live veins and branching it is quite obviously a mature tree.
This would retail with a upper 4~near 5 figure price tag in europe,assuming it had a bit of history,i've seen much worse with bmw 3 series price tags attatched
I'm going to go out on a limb and refute your statement. Tanukis if done properly are very convincing and undiscernible to all but the experienced eye.
Show them here then.

Tanuki, phoenix, fake outs, termite fodder, cheaters......they just can't seem to find a nice pleasant name for these creations of beauty. Do I dare say the 'bonsai' word in the same sentence ? What did they do to deserve such rath? Red spider eat them just like the "authentic bonsai". They don't spread like a plague causing sudden destruction of your bonsai collection. They just sit there trying to look harmlessly important. I think the real bonsai are jealous, that is what I think.

__gary

**JimLewis** Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:42 pm

My tanuki guess was based on the live part of the tree climbing straight up one side then kind of hanging over a crotch in the deadwood and looping down like a large snake hanging from a branch -- and by the gap between the roots and the deadwood at the base.

Garykk Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:25 pm

I would have to order an ultra sound and a mri bofore signing any authenticity papers. And when I show up with my van to do the lab work I will need 15 minutes by myself and the tree, also a key to the back door. pirat

__gary

Rick Moquin Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:42 pm

Lee Kennedy wrote:
Rick Moquin wrote:
Lee Kennedy wrote:Without the benefit of a other pic it aint a tanuki,they are never this good and are commonly done by beginners.Looking at the live veins and branching it is quite obviously a mature tree.
This would retail with a upper 4~near 5 figure price tag in europe,assuming it had a bit of history,i've seen much worse with bmw 3 series price tags attatched
I'm going to go out on a limb and refute your statement. Tanukis if done properly are very convincing and undiscernible to all but the experienced eye.
Show them here then.

Lee Kennedy Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:29 pm

Na they've got soul lol!

Harleyrider Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:42 pm

As Lee and I decided at Tony's recently, something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

Rick Moquin Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:46 pm

Lee Kennedy wrote:Na they've got soul

ROTFL I defy you to show me where these aren't real lol!

Lee Kennedy Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:56 pm

It's very interesting that the badger is a much derided cheat in japanese culture whereas certainly in the uk they are almost worshipped,but the humble fox and wolf is very much derided,maybe we should rename tanuki's little red riding hoods clown

Harleyrider Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:09 pm

Or, to be more cutting-edge, Red Riding Hoodies?

Rick Moquin Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:55 pm

Lee Kennedy wrote:It's very interesting that the badger is a much derided cheat in japanese culture whereas certainly in the uk they are almost worshipped,but the humble fox and wolf is very much derided,maybe we should rename tanuki's little red riding hoods

You are now responsible for a 5 finger spary all over my keyboard, thanks Very Happy

vaiojoe Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:45 am

Rob Kempinski wrote:Trees imported to the USA that long ago have some value. You will need some proof of its provenance to maximize its value and at least to counter the theme that it is a phoenix graft or tannuki.

As for the actual market value, alas the bonsai market in the US is not nearly as developed as in Asian countries. We seem to suffer from a rash of bottom feeders, however a few wealthy patrons of the art are starting to appear. Even so bonsai as art does not yet seem to command the prices that other fine art does and not what bonsai in Asia attains. To maximize its value you might be able to sell this tree to a collector from abroad. The one live vein that we can see in the photo runs in a fairly straight line and that is not as desirable as a live vein that darts around the tree. The nebari appears severely one sided I'd say in the US you'd be lucky to get $5000 for it.

If it were styled professionally into a modern design, the value would go up some, probably not much in the US but more to foreign buyer.

It's a nice tree and it deserves to be styled - at a minimum the deadwood needs to be worked so that it will remain preserved. Good luck with it and let's hope your insurance policy on it is never exercised.

Thank you. 3 (Three) pages later and I finally got a reply that is on topic. Although the other post were interesting to say the least. Shocked

Lee Kennedy Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:59 pm

Back on topic for the original poster,here are 2 sites which do have prices on them,as you will see this tree needs putting in a crate and sending to me!
look in solitare bonsai_gingko bonsai center
http://www.davidbenavente.com/venta/default.html 2 good sites for pricing info,also the reasons this doesnt look like a tanuki to me are the deadwood on the nebari is going in the same pattern as the live vein,the live vein itself is good,the main branches are real thick_a common problem with tanuki's is the skinny diameter of branches in relation to the trunk,junipers like this were more common a long time ago before they started grafting the hell out of them,this in japan would be turned into 2-3 trees nowadays,i once had a very good juniper with roots and foliage grafted to the live veinfunny how i wouldnt have touched it had the live vein been grafted on too!
I've only one thing to say if you can get material like this in the states for $5k you all wanna get to the bank,it's your cash anyway after theTARP giveaway santa

Rob Kempinski Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:59 am

Hi Lee, like I said, the bonsai market in the US is still reasonable from a buyers' perspective. I looked at the sites you recommended and those prices are in Euros which would be roughly 1.5 times in dollars. These asking prices are higher than comparable nurseries in the US which confirms my comment that the value of this shimpaku would be higher outside the USA. Here are two reputable US nurseries that charge fair prices in the USA. Check out Brussels Nursery
http://www.brusselsbonsai.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/shimpaku_juniper_specimen.html

or Guy Guidy's Bonsai Northshore. Guy doesn't have prices on all his photos but I bet you'll like the prices you do see.
http://www.bonsainorthshore.com/www.bonsainorthshore.com/BALD_CYPRESS_BONSAI.html

Some major Florida trees have recently been shipped out of the country and the prices paid were quite high. The American market seems mostly interested in bottom feeding.

Markets do vary around the globe. I recently saw some price quote of amazing ficus trees from Thailand. The trees cost about 10% of the shipping charge to the USA.

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