Can you help to ID my mislabled auction buy?

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Can you help to ID my mislabled auction buy?

Post  lordy on Sun May 27, 2012 8:07 pm

Went to an auction yesterday and was next in line at the checkout table. The guy in front of me bid on this tree and won it, but because it was sold as a Japanese Maple, he didnt want it. To keep the line moving I said I'd buy it, and at first thought it was some sort of hornbeam or perhaps beech, elm or zelcova, but now I dont know. The leaves look familiar but I cant place it, and the online tree ID sites dont get me to a definitive answer. The leaves have more of a velvety look than beech or hornbeams I think. Anyway, at least I feel confident it isnt Rose of Sharon. Wink









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Re: Can you help to ID my mislabled auction buy?

Post  Poink88 on Sun May 27, 2012 8:29 pm

Looks like elm to me.

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Re: Can you help to ID my mislabled auction buy?

Post  lordy on Sun May 27, 2012 8:39 pm

Poink88 wrote:Looks like elm to me.
I have yet to see an elm with leaves almost 4 inches long. I have Chinese and American and neither comes close in size. I just googled "elms with large leaves" and found one site that listed 7 or 8 elms, many of which I'd never heard of. Could be an elm.

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Re: Can you help to ID my mislabled auction buy?

Post  Poink88 on Sun May 27, 2012 8:46 pm

Oops sorry, did not notice the quarter for size reference. Embarassed I have not seen 4" leaves on elms around me either.

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Re: Can you help to ID my mislabled auction buy?

Post  Oliver Muscio on Sun May 27, 2012 9:22 pm

lordy wrote:
Poink88 wrote:Looks like elm to me.
I have yet to see an elm with leaves almost 4 inches long. I have Chinese and American and neither comes close in size. I just googled "elms with large leaves" and found one site that listed 7 or 8 elms, many of which I'd never heard of. Could be an elm.

My tree ID book lists American Elms as having 4" to 6" leaves. You may have been mislead by potted elms with reduced leaves. I have a small tree that a local university botanist identified as a winged elm, although it had no wings on its twigs. Leaves were relatively small, but not as small as a chinese elm, or the winged elms (with wings) that I acquired later. Last year I decided to redisign it, cut it back severly, and let a new apex grow unrestrained. Result: really BIG leaves on that shoot, on the order of 3-4"! Definitely NOT a winged elm; probably an American elm.

Your tree looks to me to be an American elm or similar species (i.e. rock elm).

Oliver

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Re: Can you help to ID my mislabled auction buy?

Post  Sakaki on Sun May 27, 2012 9:29 pm

Hi Lordy

Those big leaves recall me a bush called "Celtis australis". Its Amerikan relative (I think) is "Celtis occidentalis".
I am not quite sure, just google it! Smile

Taner

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Re: Can you help to ID my mislabled auction buy?

Post  Oliver Muscio on Sun May 27, 2012 9:37 pm

The leaves of Celtis occidentalis (a member of the elm family) are generally more finely toothed than those we see on this tree, and the veining is entirely different.
Oliver


Last edited by Oliver Muscio on Mon May 28, 2012 1:00 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : additional difference)

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Re: Can you help to ID my mislabled auction buy?

Post  Gandalph on Sun May 27, 2012 9:42 pm

Looks like a Siberian Elm to me

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Re: Can you help to ID my mislabled auction buy?

Post  GriGri on Sun May 27, 2012 11:28 pm

Ah ah, we were in the same auction yesterday. Bark and leaves look very much like my Zelkova

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Re: Can you help to ID my mislabled auction buy?

Post  JMcCoy on Sun May 27, 2012 11:56 pm

You can rule out Celtis, definitely not. My initial thoughts were that it could either be a Hornbeam or Zelkova. Both typically have much smaller leaves, but it's not unusual for deciduous trees to have really large leaves when grown in the shade. American Elm is a good guess if this is its "normal" leaf size.

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Re: Can you help to ID my mislabled auction buy?

Post  drgonzo on Mon May 28, 2012 12:30 am

This is an Elm.

It's not Zelkova which is singly saw toothed. This tree has double saw toothed leaves. There are many Elms with double saw toothed leaves so a proper ID is tough. Leaves are a bit wide for Siberian, good chance its American elm or Slippery Elm. Twigs look smooth so I'm leaning towards American.

I would separate these guys out and let them grow for a year then re-combine into a nice little forrest rather then a clump style.
-Jay


Last edited by drgonzo on Mon May 28, 2012 12:49 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Can you help to ID my mislabled auction buy?

Post  lordy on Mon May 28, 2012 12:44 am

My zelcova (albeit 20+ years in training) is similar in color to the new growth here, and almost the same shape, only all the leaves on the zelcova are that size and color. Similar in texture however. Here are side-by-side pics of the zelcova leaf next to this one. Similar but a bit slightly different. Perhaps similar enough to be the same only from different places?
Zelcova on the left, mystery plant on the right.



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Re: Can you help to ID my mislabled auction buy?

Post  Lost2301 on Mon May 28, 2012 2:18 am

Try this web site for an id: Tree's and Insects

It has a nice section on Insects to.

Mike

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Re: Can you help to ID my mislabled auction buy?

Post  drgonzo on Mon May 28, 2012 2:56 am

The glare of the flash brought out the leaf margin a bit better. I'm 99% sure we're looking at Ulmus americana. Cool! In my opinion the guy who passed it up just because someone mis-identified it lost out. I'd love to have a nice group of 3-4 year old American Elms to do a small forrest with. Maples are a dime a dozen!

-Jay

PS Leaf morphology is genetic, geographical location makes no difference, hence my Oridono Nishiki looks the same in upstate NY as it would growing in Japan. If it were otherwise botanical Taxonomy would become a guessing game.

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