Old Olive - design suggestions ?

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Old Olive - design suggestions ?

Post  theBalance on Wed May 23, 2012 1:36 pm

hi friends,

attached are the images of an old olive from 3 angles.
the tree is alive untl the middle ( best to see on front C ) and the front A is mostly dead wood
I have my own direction to take it, but I am always open for new GREAT ideas Very Happy

so : which front do you like ? what is your design idea ? Virtuals will be wormly welcome Cool

front A


front B


front C


10x for anyone who can help!
alon

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Re: Old Olive - design suggestions ?

Post  Robert Steven on Wed May 23, 2012 4:17 pm

Hi Alon,

Nice material. Despite of the design, I assume you are going to have those branches to grow thicker..and what you are doing will not make them grow thick.
- If you want to have a branch grow thick, DO NOT disturb the apical meristerm, the apical tip. Once you cut it, it will grow old but not thick.
- If you only want to make the initial growing angle and direction, you'd better not wire the entire branch because because this will also disturb the growth, not mention the wire will get into the bark.
- The worst thing you are doing that disturb the growth is that you bend the branch downward. Plant physiology..the more vertical a branch, the faster it grows; the closer to horizontal line, the slower it grows..and when it points below horizontal line, it will stop growing, instead, water-shoots from the branch will pop out to substitute the growth...

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Re: Old Olive - design suggestions ?

Post  theBalance on Wed May 23, 2012 5:00 pm

hi Robert,

10x very much for the valuable information !

currently the diffrence in thicknes&texture between the trunk and the branches is HUGE
so in my mind it will not be realistic to try and match them ( if this is what I will decide then I will need to put it in the ground and wait for at least 10 years )

also...in most of the ancient olive trees its the same - very gnarly trunk with "young" shoots...

considering the above, I was thinking to hide the branches inside "clouds" of buds
and if so making the branches thicker is not my primary concern

what about the design ? in which direction would you take the tree ?

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Re: Old Olive - design suggestions ?

Post  Robert Steven on Wed May 23, 2012 5:19 pm

theBalance wrote:hi Robert,

10x very much for the valuable information !

currently the diffrence in thicknes&texture between the trunk and the branches is HUGE
so in my mind it will not be realistic to try and match them ( if this is what I will decide then I will need to put it in the ground and wait for at least 10 years )

also...in most of the ancient olive trees its the same - very gnarly trunk with "young" shoots...

considering the above, I was thinking to hide the branches inside "clouds" of buds
and if so making the branches thicker is not my primary concern

what about the design ? in which direction would you take the tree ?

My pleasure, Alon.
I won't spend my time to get the proportional size..and based on the material character and features (as a "transformation" tree), I don't need the proportion because I will not shape it back to the "normal" ideal tree shape as it might used to be. But at least for me, "hiding" is not a good idea and I never do this, I don't like camouflaging; instead, I will use the defective features to tell the tree's story.

Look at the nature how such tree transform itself into new shape after the accident that broke most parts of the trunk, then you just needs to refine it to look beautiful.... Very Happy Change your mindset of the textbook's 1-2-3 rules....

I see something on the last picture, could you mind re-shoot another picture with better lighting to show the details ?


Last edited by Robert Steven on Wed May 23, 2012 5:21 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : mistype)

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Re: Old Olive - design suggestions ?

Post  theBalance on Wed May 23, 2012 6:16 pm

no problem - tommorow I will take a better picture from this angle

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Re: Old Olive - design suggestions ?

Post  Mitch Thomas on Wed May 23, 2012 7:31 pm

Thebalance
If I may here is some possible designs.

I think you have some nice material to start with. Either way you go you will need a good deal of extra foliage to complete any design. Also you will need to do a good bit of carving.

This is from photo #1
Using the two existing branches on the right.
[img][/img]


On the last photo I to think I can see the stump is hollowed. If so you could use this as a effect instead of a defect. This design will need much more foliage to be developed, so that means it will take longer to develope.

[img][/img]

These are just some quick sketches what do you think?

Mitch

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Re: Old Olive - design suggestions ?

Post  cosmos on Wed May 23, 2012 9:29 pm



Upper part needs to be jinned to taper. Deadwood can also be included as a sabamiki or shari. Por needs to be masculine and its colour can also be grey instead of brown as in the virtual. This is only an option. Have fun. I just love olives with character and your is one with great future. Keep us posted.

Cosmos

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Re: Old Olive - design suggestions ?

Post  Robert Steven on Thu May 24, 2012 3:03 am

cosmos wrote:

Upper part needs to be jinned to taper. Deadwood can also be included as a sabamiki or shari. Por needs to be masculine and its colour can also be grey instead of brown as in the virtual. This is only an option. Have fun. I just love olives with character and your is one with great future. Keep us posted.

Cosmos

Why should the trunk be taper ?

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Re: Old Olive - design suggestions ?

Post  Poink88 on Thu May 24, 2012 3:07 am

Excellent material. I like front C.

I cannot understand why you wired the branch that way though. Question

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Re: Old Olive - design suggestions ?

Post  theBalance on Thu May 24, 2012 9:56 am

hi everyone,

10x for your feedback...

first of all regarding the wired branch - it was wired and just put it a way from the trunk so I can see clearer - it is NOT the way it will remain Very Happy
second, for me this tree represents a "multi-front" tree - as you can see it has uniqe features from almost any "front" so my aim is to find the design that will allow me to present it in 360.

Mitch - your designs skeyches are very nice Cool the only thing is that wild old olive are not so trinagular - they are very wide..

Cosmos - 10x for your kind words, I also like olives very much. but Like robert I also don't understand why the top needs to be tapered ? it's a trunk that was damaged....

Dario - 10x, regarding C - can you tell me what did you like in C, isn't the top part problematic for you in this front ?

Robert, as I promised here are 3 additional pictures for front C ( I took this morning ) - the pictures are much better then the reality Very Happy










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one more thing

Post  theBalance on Thu May 24, 2012 10:00 am

just so it will be clear...I have marked the LIVE part in RED
all the rest is dead wood


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Re: Old Olive - design suggestions ?

Post  Mitch Thomas on Thu May 24, 2012 10:51 am

thebalance
Ahh ok now I have a better understanding of the 3D of your tree. That being said I think I would go for the first photo for the front and style it kinda like my sketch. If that's the only live vein on one side of the stump you are forced to use what you have. In nature the tree would redesign its self from that area for survival. The remainder would eventually rot away. All trees start off as angular shapes when they are young and develop different shaped foliage pads as they mature. That's why my sketch is so angleuar. You will have to balance the huge amount of dead wood with your foliage pads. IMHO the dead wood will be the major component in your design.

There are many possibilities with your tree. Having a only a little experence with olives I am not really sure how long it will take to put out growth to make any other design in a reasonable amount of time. So I guess that's why my sketch went in that direction.

I have a olive that I obtained last summer from Doug Phillips in Kentucky. Check out his web site its not been up dated in a while but there is some interesting material there. I did the first styling on it this spring. I do find the growth habits very predictable. It seems to love the heat here. I use a inorganic mix of haydite and floor dry. It's a very fast draining mix so I must water often during the growing season. I do have many Yaupon hollies and find them to be very similar in care and development.

Mitch

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Re: Old Olive - design suggestions ?

Post  Poink88 on Thu May 24, 2012 12:26 pm

I really like the movement of C and it didn't change even wit the dead wood. After seeing the detail shots, I am even more impressed. The top is not a problem too. I think it just need a little refining with minor carving to hi-lite the dead wood (really minimal).

It is an excellent stock...good luck with it!

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Re: Old Olive - design suggestions ?

Post  cosmos on Thu May 24, 2012 1:15 pm

Re. tapering.
1. the tree might look more compact.
2. a matter of my 'taste'.
3. it should not be too drastic, just bettering with carving, and maybe creating a small tenjin (at the top).

Nonetheless, Robert has valid reasons re. the minimal touching.

Again the tree has a postive potential. Keep us posted.

Thank you
Cosmos

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my design direction

Post  theBalance on Thu May 24, 2012 1:33 pm

hi guys,

first of all regarding growth - this is really not a problem...the tree is in excelent condition the branches were cut back hard about 2 weeks ago, and about to put out a lot of growth.
this is why it's important for me to decide on the design now, so I can "control" the growth to where it should be.

I must say that in reality, front A - is much more impressive then front C, and this is currently my plan for use as the "main" front...

but i'm still waiting for robert's feedback - maybe he will find a magic on front C
or anyone else...and like I said i'm looking for an optimal branch placement so the tree will look good all around Cool

the current direction I am thinking about is something like :



what do you think about it ? do you like it ? maybe you have any idea on how to improve it ?

10x!
alon

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Re: Old Olive - design suggestions ?

Post  Robert Steven on Thu May 24, 2012 1:41 pm

Thanks Cosmos,
I can understand about taste.

Alon, nice simulation, but will you make this with the tiny branches or wait to let them grow for ideal proportion ? I will give my idea..just about going out for dinner... Very Happy

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another refined option

Post  theBalance on Thu May 24, 2012 1:52 pm

wider canopy + some dead wood refinment on the top


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Re: Old Olive - design suggestions ?

Post  cosmos on Thu May 24, 2012 1:54 pm



A virtual for front C. Hope you like it. This front seems to show more of the life vein and deadwood. In the future one needs to balance the foliage amount and the now seemingly 'overhelming' deadwood. But that is the fun and challenge that this tree offers.

Cosmos

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Re: Old Olive - design suggestions ?

Post  Robert Steven on Thu May 24, 2012 1:56 pm

theBalance wrote:wider canopy + some dead wood refinment on the top


I remember your last picture about the alive part, so I assume this design will have lots of camouflaging branches to form the "shape"... Laughing

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Re: Old Olive - design suggestions ?

Post  cosmos on Thu May 24, 2012 1:56 pm

Hi thebalance we are on the same wavelength. Nice virtual.

Cosmos

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Re: Old Olive - design suggestions ?

Post  theBalance on Thu May 24, 2012 2:00 pm

cosmos - that's great - i'm glad you like it ( by the way - which one ? with the wider canopy ? )

Robert,
first of all enjoy dinner Laughing

regarding "camouflaging branches " - I didn't understand this, currently I have branches in perfect location, some will create folige for the "live" part, and some will come from the "back" to the front and create the rest of the folige, also in this "front" the tree is in an angle so the 3D effect will be strong...what exactly did you mean by "camouflaging branches "

regarding the branches development - there are 2 things here we want to achieve

1. make them thicker
2. make them in the right place and the right movement

if I will let them grow "vertically" = straight up, and will not wire them...so they will grow thick....
but after they are thick...how will I manage to wire them to the place according design ?

or maybe you mean just let the tip of the branch grow vertically un-disturbed ?

but I have patient Very Happy I can wait for you to return from dinner - not so good to think when your'e starving Razz

alon

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Re: Old Olive - design suggestions ?

Post  cosmos on Thu May 24, 2012 2:44 pm

I like the wider canopy.
I think you have to apply the Lignan technique of cut and grow, keeping in mind the direction you want to go. But we wait for Robert.

Cosmos


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Re: Old Olive - design suggestions ?

Post  Robert Steven on Thu May 24, 2012 4:16 pm

theBalance wrote:cosmos - that's great - i'm glad you like it ( by the way - which one ? with the wider canopy ? )

Robert,
first of all enjoy dinner Laughing

regarding "camouflaging branches " - I didn't understand this, currently I have branches in perfect location, some will create folige for the "live" part, and some will come from the "back" to the front and create the rest of the folige, also in this "front" the tree is in an angle so the 3D effect will be strong...what exactly did you mean by "camouflaging branches "

regarding the branches development - there are 2 things here we want to achieve

1. make them thicker
2. make them in the right place and the right movement

if I will let them grow "vertically" = straight up, and will not wire them...so they will grow thick....
but after they are thick...how will I manage to wire them to the place according design ?

or maybe you mean just let the tip of the branch grow vertically un-disturbed ?

but I have patient Very Happy I can wait for you to return from dinner - not so good to think when your'e starving Razz

alon

OK, I am back from nice dinner..seafood... drunken

What I mean by camouflaging has already said by you..."...some will create folige for the "live" part, and some will come from the "back" to the front and create the rest of the folige..." ...."...if I will let them grow "vertically" = straight up, and will not wire them...so they will grow thick, but after they are thick...how will I manage to wire them to the place according design ?..."

You are trapped in your mind-set, your obsession to have the ideal textbook form with the 1-2-3 branches placement, then you do it by bending the branches here and there to fit the composition like junipers does; then when you think they cannot be bend, you are stuck to the problem...because you are obsessive to what you want to make, not follow what the tree tell you to do. The ramification structure of broad leaves tree is not suppose to be set like junipers by bending here and there; if you do that, it is camouflage, then it will never be a good bonsai. Although there are lots of people doing this, but I never recommend.

A transformation tree will not set its new form to as its initial shape again, but it will form a new shape which not follow the ideal tree form with the 1-2-3 arrangement because asuming some branches are already gone and you are not oblige to set the new one at the same place; but our job as a bonsai artist is just to simulate the natural phenomena, to set a new design composition that looks beautiful and logical.

On top of that, why should we always make our bonsai material to look like a formal tree ? We should think out of the box to find other possibility base on what the material can be done, there are so many possibilities to make it into avocating bonsai design.

In my opinion, I have 2 option, one is to make it into cascade style and one is a new transformed tree shape. For the last one, I will not design it into the ideal tree form because part of the trunk is dead, some formal branches might have dead and gone, so the new branches arrangement will be in irregular shape, mostly new shoots that I don't need to have the proportion. Ofcourse this picture is just simulation, in reality, you need to train the ramification structure with clip-and-grow technique so that they look more natural and like an old tree. The most important thing is the composition, the output should look like old tree in nature and look beautiful.

Ofcourse these are not the only option, you can have many choice with your taste, but my advice is..make what your material tell you to make, don't be obsessive...





Last edited by Robert Steven on Thu May 24, 2012 4:39 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Re: Old Olive - design suggestions ?

Post  theBalance on Thu May 24, 2012 5:24 pm

hi Robert,
I’m glad you’ve enjoyed you’re dinner ( I also like seafood )
Before talking about the 2 very beutifall & original designs you have suggested...

I would like to try to understand the basic concept ( as you keep mentioning in your books ) but it is not so simple to really understand...
You are saying :” make what your material tell you to make” – if I understand correctly ( also from the rest of the things you said ) what you mean is NOT to wire and bend the branches, but instead let the tree grow it’s branches naturally and only “clip and grow”.

As you write in your books a tree is always in a cycle : juvenile - > mature -> some event - >transformation process - > mature ( again )
A tree in nature that has gone via transformation process and “found” is new “mature” shape – do have branches that exit from the trunk up, but then start descending ( because of the weight of the branches& leaves that bends it over time )...

If I only clip and grow then the branches will only go up & to the side but never down ( well maybe if I will not prune for 10 years ) and the tree will remain in “transformation” and will not reach the new transformed & balanced mature shape
So i’m confused,

another question is regarding the chosen front - can you explain what made you choose it ? was it because most of the live branches are there ?

Hope you can enlighten me
alon

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Re: Old Olive - design suggestions ?

Post  Robert Steven on Thu May 24, 2012 6:26 pm

NO..NO..NO....
You are talking two different things. I am talking about aesthetic principles and you are talking about technical aspect. For aesthetic principles, you should use your intuitive and imaginery sense to understand the artistic aspect, it is an implicit thing, it is beyond the explicit form. You are still bounding yourself in the technical aspect and not go to the aesthetics...

When I say :” make what your material tell you to make” – It mean you should use your imagination, with all the means of your knowledge about plant physiology and plant morphology, including the transformation process of plant (read carefully again my book about these important aspects) to find your vision on the material, to find the hidden design potential that fit to the material..base on all the features available.

What makes me select the last picture for the viewing angle ? Because it gives me all the features that I can turn into unique and avocating bonsai. I am not searching for perfection, defective and ugliness is a potential fact for beauty. This sound absurd ? yes, that's the oriental art..we are searching for the inner beauty of nature, not the visible definition. You need to use more of your inner eyes rather than logic...
If you can see the beauty of this tree, then you know what I am saying...



Anyone can help me to explain in better way ? drunken drunken Very Happy




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